I have to explain why Shaq is better than Hakeem and Russell? What else do I have to do, explain why Kobe is better than Micheal Redd? Hakeem: 32.75ppg 11.5rpg .483 FG% 5.5 apg 44.75mpg Shaq: 28ppg 12.5rpg .557 FG% 6.25apg Who schooled who? Not to mention this is Prime Olajuwon vs 23 year old Shaq.
+++rep! Thanks Deckard, finally an old person who has seen all these players play and could compare them! Hurray for the old school!
Wekko, that team had heart and mental toughness that was among the best in the history of the nba. that team was Clutch City.
Perfectly said. Fought tooth and nail and came from down in series more than once, beat the Knicks at their own style of game in the Finals.
true, but they did have all star talent. remember OT made the all star game a year or so ago. it's ok if you have one all star.. who happens to be the MVP, DPOY at the same time.
OK, this is at least the 5th time I've made this post, so I'll keep it short... Dream is the best all-around center in NBA history. If you took all the greats at their peak and you were coaching any of them against Dream in a tie game with two minutes left, it does not matter who you pick to defend Dream... Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq... you are going to also have to bring a double team from somewhere because Dream is too good on the offensive end. Now, if you're the other coach and have Dream against any of those guys, you can gamble and tell the rest of your team to not double because the odds are good that Dream will make the other centers take a bad shot or block their shot or steal the ball or deflect the entry pass or just make a play. I'm convinced that this is a true scenario, and if it is, that's a huge advantage for Dream.
I know this view will be unpopular on this board, but the title of best all-around center has to go to Wilt Chamberlain. He could be the greatest scorer of all time, the greatest rebounder of all time, the greatest defender of all time (Russell said that Wilt could do his job better than he could when he focused on it), and the greatest big man distributor of all time (led the league in assists). Now Wilt lacked killer instinct and had some memorable chokes in the playoffs but in terms of all around game I don't think he can be beat.
Since you feel Wilt was the greatest scorer, rebounder, defender, and best big man distributor of all time, why is it that Jordan is considered the GOAT? And furthermore, can you explain why Jordan thinks that Olajuwon is the best? By the way, people continually point out the effect of the inferior era that Wilt played in, but it looks like you conveniently chose to ignore that. It takes a rare breed of poster to take a point that has been addressed and refuted and still champion it.
Yeah? I'd put money on Dream averaging a triple double for the seaon in points, rebounds and blocks in their era. He might even lead the league in steals.
Magic Johnson mentioned that the Lakers scrimmaged against Wilt (retired) in the 80s cause somebody said Wilt wasn't that good and Wilt dominated the paint. I'm sure people who actually saw Wilt play have a valid argument. not the kids who read the NBA history cliff notes.
I don't consider Jordan the GOAT, but the main (legitimate) reason why Wilt Chamberlain's GOAT credentials can be questioned is what I wrote below the thing you quoted; Wilt lacked killer instinct and had memorable chokes in the playoffs. It was not lack of skill or athleticism. Players are naturally very biased towards their own eras. If you listen to the 60's players, they will make Wilt sound like a mythical godlike figure, and the tales positively sound like Chuck Norris jokes, except they are great players telling them in all seriousness. If we were comparing contemporary accounts Wilt has everyone in NBA history beat by a longshot. Several teams in the 1980's offered Wilt a contract to play because they thought he could contribute. The inferior competition is not a legitimate argument. I posted previously the long list of Hall of Fame centers that Wilt contended against and dominated. Go on basketball-reference and check the heights of players of that era and after adding 1.5 inches for the barefoot-shoe difference and you'll find that the heights at the center position are about the same from the mid 1960's on. There was comparatively less total talent in the NBA at that time, but there were 8-10 teams in the league, not 30; you'll find that over half the league had a Hall of Famer on their team. The modern medicine is external to the game, and if you gave everyone in the league in the 1960's modern sports medicine the athleticism level would rise to the point where it would be comparable to today. If we invalidate records for steroids, then we must concede that modern sports medicine has a similar effect on performance.
You see it in all sports, those early to the game set unreachable records due to the level of competition (or lack thereof). Wilt's 50pt/25rbs per game avg or 100 pt game will likely never be touched. Kareem's total pts scored will likely stand as will Russel's 11 titles. Would Babe's Home Run record have been beaten w/o steroids....doubtful. The general rule is that team sports and sports with defenses have more lasting records. Individual sport, especially those that are against the clock, are always being pushed. Every Olympics we see world records breaking all over the place in individual, timed events. Teams sports...not so much. ------------------ In that light, I have no problem saying that Russel and Wilt benefited so ENORMOUSLY from the era in which they played that it is probably impossible to gage their greatness. ------------------ But I will say that I would definitely take Kareem, Shaq or Hakeem over Wilt or Russel ANY day. Shaq would mow though Wilt like he did everyone else (except for Sabonius), Hakeem would throw 3 moves at Russel or shoot over him or power up his jump hook and put up 30 a night. Kareem would get his shy hook up over anyone. Erick Dampier would be in the Hall of Fame if he played in Russel's era.
Sorry, but if he were as great in everything as you think, he'd be the unquestioned GOAT. Lets go over your list (keep in mind I never saw any of these guys play): Kareem Abdul Jabbar - KAJ came into the league during the 69-70 season. During the same season, Wilt played a total of 12 games, and during the next 3 years, his career took a sharp decline. Sorry, but KAJ is not a valid HOF center that Wilt "contended against and dominated." Nate Thurmond - Thurmond was a great rebounder but an inefficient scorer. His rebound number can be explained because teams took more shots back then. During Thurmond's best rebounding year with the Warriors, his team averaged 131.8 shots per game. Compare this with the 105.6 shots per game the 93-94 Rockets averaged, and Thurmond's numbers arent really that impressive. Walt Bellamy/Willis Reed/Lucas - These guys had solid numbers, but nothing extraordinary. Reed/Lucas's rebounding averages seems high, but again, thats the result of more shots being taken. Also, since Reed was 6'9 and Lucas 6'8, they might have had some problems in Olajuwon's era. Ewing's (IMO, the 4th best center in the era) statistics are more impressive than any of these 3, and he played against more athletic players. Sorry, but IMO, you can't assume they'd put up better numbers due to the increased athleticism coming from sports medicine. That's like me saying that if Olajuwon were playing basketball in the 60's, then that would mean he was living in the states b/c basketball was not the international phenomenon it was in the 80's. And continuing, that would mean that he learned the game at a younger age (maybe 8-9 instead of 15), and that means that he'd already be developed when he came into the league and would thus dominate.
Wilt lacked killer instinct. Many a player from his era has said that as well, and also noted that he cared more about his stats at times (for example, the yr he led the league in assists he did it just to prove that he could). Outside of MJ, Magic and Bird, I can't think of too many players I would want in a big game over Hakeem. He hated to lose. Wilt was cool with it as long as he got his. No way can I see Hakeem letting the same dude (Russell) knock him out the playoffs. He took it too personal. Give me Hakeem. Please list a Russell title team that wasn't arguably the best in basketball. Yes, folks say he could have scored more, but when he did score, it was sub 50%. Hakeem was just light years ahead of him offensively. Give me Hakeem. Kareem is really the only dude I would take over Dream, especially the 70's version.
With Wilt, the thing was always what he couldn't do, not what he could do. Early in his career, people said all he did was dunk, so he worked on his finger roll and his turnaround jumper, and became an unstoppable post player. Then they said all he did was shoot, so he led the league in assists. Then they said he was a lazy defender, so he picked up his defense to the point where Russell (who was in a 25+ year feud with Wilt at the time) said he was doing his (Russell's) job better than he could. This has basically been Wilt's perception to the point where people kind of forget what he could do. Also, when people/media talk about the Greatest Player of All Time, invariably the playoffs gain weight in the evaluation. Wilt had some shameful chokes and did not have the "killer instinct". This makes his GOAT standing suffer. For example, there is no question Wilt was a better player than Russell, but Russell was voted as GOAT in 1980. If Wilt had the "killer instinct", he would undoubtedly be the GOAT. But that's not a failure of his game, it's a failure of his mental makeup, and we were talking about who has the best all-around game. You left Russell off the list. I said KAJ was an exception, but he outplayed KAJ in the 1972 Western Conference Finals and that was the key to the Lakers championship that year. Thurmond is one of the greatest defensive centers of all time, Russell was arguably the greatest defender of all time period. Bellamy was an excellent interior scorer, and Reed and Lucas were fine scorers, great rebounders, and Reed was an excellent defender. On the sizes you need to add 1.5 inches because heights then were measured barefoot, and Hakeem himself was something like 6'10". All of these guys except Bellamy was on the 50 Greatest Players list. That's a specific instance unique to Olajuwon. Sports medicine is something external to the game that every player benefits from today but not in the 1960's and it should be accounted for. There is absolutely a measurable difference. Humans do not evolve that quickly anyway.
Russell was a given since he's widely considered the main competition Wilt faced. Then you shouldn't have included him in your list. Maybe against the centers in his era who were generally inefficient scorers (with a few exceptions). Also, his rebound numbers are factored into the idea that he's a great defensive center, but what's excluded is the fact that many more shots per game. But an inefficient scorer. Like I said, Bellamy's numbers weren't extraordinary. There's absolutely nothing that suggests he'd have comparable success in Olajuwon's era. And like I said, Reed and Lucas were undersized (even if you include shoes). Olajuwon may have been 6'10, but he was one of the most athletic centers in NBA history with the best footwork of any center. That's how he compensated. The 50 greatest players list doesn't adjust for eras. They just looked at accomplishments and statistics. Humans may not evolve that quickly, but basketball's popularity did. As basketball's popularity grew, so did the number of people playing it. As a result, the talent pool grew exponentially. Sports medicine shouldn't be accounted for because there's no logical way to quantify it, and its benefits would be unique to each individual. You said it would make players more athletic, but to what extent? As I understand it, Wilt was already an extraordinary athlete. How much of an effect do you think modern day sports medicine would've had?
I remember Wilt said Hakeem was the only center of the 90s that may of played as good as him and Hakeem had a similar game to him. Same time he said Calvin Murphy should of been in the top 50 players all time. I also remember Russel saying Wilt was the Best, and that Wilt would even have beastly stats when he played against Wilt. He was I thought I did great against him and looked up at the board and hed have 40pts 30rebs. And I remember when I was a kid that the most hated ref in houston the one that kicked clyde out of a game in the playoffs. The one that was a ref from Russel to Hakeem. Was reported in the chronicle saying Hakeem was the best player he ever ref'd and the refs had to contain him or he would of completely changed & dominated the game. My order is: Offensive: Wilt Hakeem Shaq Jab D.Rob Defensive: Russel Hakeem Jab Wilt Mutombo Overall: Wilt Hakeem Jab Shaq Russel
ArtisGilmore You can't call a man the GOAT, then say he didn't have a killer instinct in the same paragraph. That's what seperates the men from the boys. T-Mac has all the skills that Kobe has, Sheed has all the skills that Duncan has, Robinson had all the skills Hakeem had, etc....but none of them had what those guys had because none of them were as bothered by losing. Yes, Wilt didn't have a killer instinct, which is why I wouldn't take him over a super skilled center who did (Hakeem).
