Also, I think Wilt's 50+ average qualifying for a ballhogger. I am not sure any star wanted to play with him.
Whoa whoa whoa! Top three agreed... but D-Rob? Nice guy but NOT in the same league as the others. Shaq is clearly MUCH MUCH MUCH better than David Robinson as a player.
Hmm, I just noticed that my list, and many of yours, occur in roughly chronologic order. I wonder if people tend to be biased to the old time players. I think the competition in the NBA today is much, much greater than it was back in the days of Wilt and Russell. How many NBA teams were there back then? It was probably much easier to dominate the league back then than it would be today. So it is quite difficult to compare across different time periods.
Shaq may be more dominant as a scorer, but I don't agree with you here. David Robinson may have been seen as too soft and doesn't growl or scowl like Shaq when he scored, but he was as good as Hakeem at their peaks. He was all-NBA first team as many times as Hakeem was when they were in the league at the same time. He also won a scoring title and a defensive player of the year. His overall stats also would have been better if he hadn't fulfilled his duties in the Navy for 2 years. He was a much better all-around player than Shaq, and a much better role model as well.
Well, this is Wilt's season average through his career. When your center is shooting high percentage from the field, the team should feed him the ball no matter how many points he scored. Sound familiar? If a team with Yao, KG, Kobe and Stevie beats a Shaq led team surrounded by the likes of Horry, Rush, Fox in every playoff series, does that automatically indicate that Yao is a better than Shaq? At least at this moment? Season Team G Min FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% Rebounds Asst PF DQ PTS 1959-60 Philadelphia 72 3338 1065 2311 0.461 577 991 0.582 1941 168 150 0 2707 1960-61 Philadelphia 79 3773 1251 2457 0.509 531 1054 0.504 2149 148 130 0 3033 1961-62 Philadelphia 80 3882 1597 3159 0.506 835 1363 0.613 2052 192 123 0 4029 1962-63 San Fran. 80 3806 1463 2770 0.528 660 1113 0.593 1946 275 136 0 3586 1963-64 San Fran. 80 3689 1204 2298 0.524 540 1016 0.531 1787 403 182 0 2948 1964-65 S.F.-Phil. 73 3301 1063 2083 0.510 408 880 0.464 1673 250 146 0 2534 1965-66 Philadelphia 79 3737 1074 1990 0.540 501 976 0.513 1943 414 171 0 2649 1966-67 Philadelphia 81 3682 785 1150 0.683 386 875 0.441 1957 630 143 0 1956 1967-68 Philadelphia 82 3836 819 1377 0.595 354 932 0.38 1952 702 160 0 1992 1968-69 Los Angeles 81 3669 641 1099 0.583 382 857 0.446 1712 366 142 0 1664 1969-70 Los Angeles 12 505 129 227 0.568 70 157 0.446 221 49 31 0 328 1970-71 Los Angeles 82 3630 668 1226 0.545 360 669 0.538 1493 352 174 0 1696 1971-72 Los Angeles 82 3469 496 764 0.649 221 524 0.422 1572 329 196 0 1213 1972-73 Los Angeles 82 3542 426 586 0.727 232 455 0.51 1526 365 191 0 1084 Totals 47859 12681 23497 0.54 6057 11862 0.511 23924 4643 2075 0 31419
Sorry this is Wilt's per game stats. PER GAME STATS Season Team G Min/G FG% FT% RPG APG DQ PPG 1959-60 Philadelphia 72 46.4 0.461 0.582 27.0 2.3 0 37.6 1960-61 Philadelphia 79 47.8 0.509 0.504 27.2 1.9 0 38.4 1961-62 Philadelphia 80 48.5 0.506 0.613 25.7 2.4 0 50.4 1962-63 San Fran. 80 47.6 0.528 0.593 24.3 3.4 0 44.8 1963-64 San Fran. 80 46.1 0.524 0.531 22.3 5.0 0 36.9 1964-65 S.F.-Phil. 73 45.2 0.510 0.464 22.9 3.4 0 34.7 1965-66 Philadelphia 79 47.3 0.540 0.513 24.6 5.2 0 33.5 1966-67 Philadelphia 81 45.5 0.683 0.441 24.2 7.8 0 24.1 1967-68 Philadelphia 82 46.7 0.595 0.380 23.8 8.6 0 24.3 1968-69 Los Angeles 81 45.3 0.583 0.446 21.1 4.5 0 20.5 1969-70 Los Angeles 12 42.0 0.568 0.446 18.4 4.1 0 27.3 1970-71 Los Angeles 82 44.3 0.545 0.538 18.2 4.3 0 20.7 1971-72 Los Angeles 82 42.3 0.649 0.422 19.2 4.0 0 14.8 1972-73 Los Angeles 82 43.2 0.727 0.510 18.6 4.5 0 13.2 TOTALS 1045 45.8 0.54 0.511 22.9 4.4 0 30.1
From http://wiltfan.tripod.com/wiltrules.html Wilt vs. "the Best": Career Year Name PPG RPG APG FG% FT% Wilt Chamberlain 30.1 22.9 4.4 .0.54 .0.511 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 24.6 11.2 3.6 0.56 0.721 Bill Russell 15.1 22.5 4.3 0.44 0.561 Michael Jordan 31.5 6.3 5.4 0.51 0.838 Magic Johnson 19.5 7.2 11.2 0.52 0.848 Oscar Robertson 25.7 7.5 9.5 0.49 0.838 Larry Bird 24.3 10.0 6.3 0.50 0.886 Career Numbers Name Year PPG RPG APG FG% FT% Wilt Chamberlain 1967 24.1 24.2 7.8 0.683 0.441 1962 50.4 25.7 2.4 0.506 0.613 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1972 34.8 16.6 4.6 0.574 0.689 Bill Russell 1962 18.9 23.6 4.5 0.457 0.595 Michael Jordan 1989 32.5 8.0 8.0 0.538 0.850 1987 37.1 5.2 4.6 0.482 0.857 Magic Johnson 1987 23.9 6.3 12.2 0.522 0.848 1982 18.6 9.6 9.5 0.537 0.760 Oscar Robertson 1962 30.8 12.5 11.4 0.478 0.803 Larry Bird 1988 29.9 9.3 6.1 0.527 0.916 Wilt vs. Bill Russell: Wilt. No iffs ands or butts. Russell's offensive game was very limited. According to Russell, himself, Wilt could do Russell's role better than Russell, "Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." (Great Moments in Pro Basketball, by Sam Goldaper, p.24) Russell said this while he was player-coach of the Celtics. Russell could not fulfill as many roles as Wilt, especially if he had to be first option on offense. While some of Russell's teammates try to belittle Wilt by saying if Wilt were a Celtic, they would have won a few titles, but not as many, I have yet to see anybody step forward and say that Russell could have led the Warriors to the title. For those who say rings are the thing and want to judge a player based on what 12 players do, I ask: is Dennis Rodman better than Karl Malone? Sam Jones better than Michael Jordan? Luc Longley better than Patrick Ewing? Magic Johnson better than Larry Bird (that always makes Celtic fans cringe!)?
"but he was as good as Hakeem at their peaks" Except that head to head in their primes in the playoffs, Hakeem killed David. I like San Antonio. I was born there. I only root against the Spurs when the Rockets play them. I like Robinson. He's a great guy and I think the soft thing is a bad rap, but at there peak in the playoffs where regular season stats lose much of their meaning, Hakeem beat him one on one in a match up neither team could afford to lose. He also got blasted by Shaq in the playoff. My opinon. Robinson doesn't belong on the list.
Maybe you were too young to remember but David Robinson was awarded league MVP I believe in 95? He had his ceremony right before the Rockets game. Dream went to school on him all night. Robinson should have handed the trophy over to Hakeem after that game. Oh fond memories...
Does anyone remember the stats for that night? I think Hakeem scored like 40 something and held Robinson to 10? I just remember total dominance.
"Why judge anymore? When a man has broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him as the greatest player ever." Pat Riley on Kareem.
I would agree that the playoff is a bigger stage and Robinson lost to Hakeem there 2-to-4. Hakeem also had a longer career, which is why I ranked Hakeem above Robinson. No argument there. But Robinson blasted Hakeem in the regular season 30-to-12 over their careers. A much bigger sample size, no? Also when Robinson played Shaq in the playoffs, he was already in the twilight of his career and was bothered by injuries. He did win against the Lakers just last year, however. I think Robinson's accomplishments on the court have been way underappreciated. Off the court, he's one of the biggest givers to charities. In fact, I think the NBA named an award after him for community service.
And to the guy who claimed that Russell shut down Wilt in numerous of their meetings, LOL! Here are the facts of head to head meeting between the 2: According to Sixer stat man Harvey Pollack, Wilt and Russell squared off 142 times. Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds in those games. Russell averaged 23.7 points and 14.5 rebounds against Wilt. Wilt had a 62 point game on January 14, 1962, in Boston and had 6 other games of 50 points against Russell. The most Russell ever scored against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30-point games. Wilt grabbed an NBA-record 55 rebounds against Russell on November 24, 1960, and had six other games of at least 40 rebounds against Russell. When the Sixers beat the Celtics in the 1967 playoffs, Wilt averaged 22 points, 32 rebounds, and 10 assists -- a triple double-- against Russell! In the clinching game 5, he had 29 points, 36 rebounds, and 13 assists. If all of this is being "shut down" then Michael Jordan has been shut down by the Cleveland Cavaliers during his entire career. Michael Cooper shut down Larry Bird in the finals, because the Lakers beat the Celtics 2 out of 3 times! If this is being "shut down", then there isn't a player in the NBA that hasn't been "shut down" every single night of his career!
First of all, Bill Russell, first and foremost, is known for his absolute dominance on defense. He is widely regarded as the greatest defensive player in the history of the game. Unfortunately, defense does not reflect well, if at all, on stat sheets from the old days. Also, Bill Russell actually won more MVPs than Wilt Chamberlain did 5-to-4, many in years in which Wilt had far better offensive stats. The award was voted on by players themselves at that time, and there must've been very good reasons for why they thought Russell was more valuable than Chamberlain. It wasn't just a popularity contest. He was simply being humble in his quotes.
You're still enamored with the scoring, huh? And you better recheck those stats too, because they're wrong. There's no way Russell averaged less than 20 rebounds per game against Wilt. I already mentioned that Wilt was the first option on his team, whereas Russell shared the scoring with his teammates, skewing the scoring stats towards Wilt. I won't keep you from drooling all over Wilt's scoring stats, though, if you insist. I know I'm in the minority for thinking Russell is better than Wilt, but there's a reason why so many players and media of the day thought that Russell was better or just as good, with defense being a big part of the reason.
"A much bigger sample size, no?" You have a point there, except that I was focusing on the word "peak" and in my opinion that playoff series was when both met under the most crucial time at the "peak" of their carreras. In the playoffs the real teams and the real players show up. You might score perfect 100's on you homework, but if you can't pass the "test" are you really know the material as well as your homework average shows. "Also when Robinson played Shaq in the playoffs, he was already in the twilight of his career and was bothered by injuries. " Your right. I probably shouldn't have given that as example since I was trying to focus on their play at the peak of their carrears. "I think Robinson's accomplishments on the court have been way underappreciated. " True, but the only sports radio I get are out of Austin and San Antonio. Believe me they make sure I don't underappreciate his accomplishments. In their eyes Robinson is not just one of the top five centers he one of the top 5 players of all time. "Off the court, he's one of the biggest givers to charities. In fact, I think the NBA named an award after him for community service." I do agree with that. I just don't think most people immediatly think of character these days when they are asked to rate athletes. Performance seems to be all that counts (Latrell Sprewell, Dennis Rodman, etc). Kind of sad. Still, I take Hakeem over Robinson for the ability to perform in the clutch. If you throw in altruism and character in, then I'd reluctantly agree with your rating.
Hotrockets, "Maybe you were too young to remember but David Robinson was awarded league MVP I believe in 95? " I was just correcting a gramatical error I made. I had made it sound like Hakeem had been blasted by Shaq rather than Robinson. I remember the series against Robinson well, and if I ever start to forget I'll just pull out the tape and watch it again.
Wilt also led the league in assists! Also, Russell was not the first option because he had many other stars on his team. I can't even name one other player off the top my head on Wilt's team. Russell had more help and that's why he had more championships.
