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Hakeem not impressed with LeBron

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by TWS1986, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. Ramo$e

    Ramo$e Member

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    Players in that era weren't graciously allowed to walk into the paint without knowing there was some kind of repercussions.
     
    Duke Fan, clos4life and sirjesse like this.
  2. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Very true that Sampson’s health had a severe long term impact on the Rockets’ chances of winning a title in the ‘80’s, but there are two things I would like to add to that. The first is just how good Sampson was his first 3 seasons. Ralph was the unchallenged Rookie of the Year and an All Star right off the bat. In his second year, an All Star again, even though the arrival of Dream caused him to move from his natural position at the 5 to the 4. Not only was he effective as a power forward, he started at that position in that season’s All Star game and was the game’s MVP. I saw that game and it was well earned.

    The next season saw him meld further with Dream into a devastating pair, Olajuwon a monster at the 5, with Sampson crazy good at the 4, playing the 5 when Dream took a blow or was tossed for fighting. They eliminated the defending champion Lakers in the playoffs, a team favored to win the series and packed with great players, in 5 games. As everyone knows, Ralph won the deciding game with The Shot, and then the Rockets went on to lose to Boston in 6 in the Finals. Ralph was injured, which really didn’t impact his game until the next year. Meanwhile, the media loved the Rockets, declaring they were sure to be the next dynasty before and after the loss to Boston.

    As you pointed out, after that season (but not before) Sampson’s injuries caught up with him. Major bummer, right? Huge impact on Dream’s chances for a title in the 80’s, but it was more than that. We had lost 3 of our best players, aside from Sampson’s injuries (not treated as they would have been today, IMO). Lew Lloyd and Mitch Wiggins were tossed from the league, and John Lucas, our starting one and former #1 draft pick, was tossed during the 85-86 season. All for cocaine. I’ve often wondered what the impact of Lucas would have been in that Boston series. Anyway, Dream lost more than just Sampson. He lost the tremendous depth that Rockets team possessed that was a huge part of their success through the end of the ‘86 Finals. You guys know that stuff, but some here might not.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

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    No one will ever be able to compare eras properly - different training, different rules, different nutrition, etc. But one thing Lebron has going for him is variety. Jordan played in an era of less player movement where teams stayed roughly the same for long periods of time. He won 6 championships in 8 years, with the same coach, same sidekick, and a lot of the same teammates. Whether he could win in a different situation will always be an unknown.

    Lebron has won over a larger timespan with 3 completely differently teams and different teammates/coaches/systems/etc. He's done it in a league that's constantly changing with new teams popping up regularly. And he's beaten one team in the finals that was a dynasty of their own at their peak.

    That's not to say Lebron is necessarily better - but I think he's proven more in terms of a more diverse resume.
     
  4. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    Yes unfortunately Olajuwon entered the league with Sampson soon failing in health.

    Jordan and Olajuwon came into the league ready to dominate and destroy the competition single handily.
    Jordan with something like 37 FGA’s per game in the early seasons and Olajuwon wanting to dunk on everyone.

    Kenny Smith telling an instance (during halftime) of a game saying, Olajuwon demanded, “give me the ball!”

    Kenny: “Dream, they are quadruple teaming you.”

    Dream: “That’s ok, i dunk on all of them!”

    that was years after “The Dream” came into the league (with Wiggins, Lloyd, Lucas, Murphy).


    We all know players take about 2 to 3 years to mature. I remember an interview of a college player saying
    he was driving and decided to take the shot from the free throw line. Not giving Olajuwon a chance to
    block the shot. Olajuwon leaped and corralled the ball at its highest peak and brought it down all in one quick
    motion. The player left thinking, “that wasn’t humanly possible.”

    Murphy will always be one of my favorite Rockets because he could play, rarely missed a free throw and was playing
    in the NBA as a short man in a big man’s sport. Short compared to other NBA players. Plus Calvin was not someone
    you wanted to mess with. He could fight.

    Love me some “Mad Max” for much the same reason. You may get the better of Maxwell; but Vernon made the
    opposing player work. Jordan knew this. Jordan may not say Mad Max was one of his toughest opponents....
    but I watched Jordan work harder vs Mad Max than most of the players in the league.

    I will always say Olajuwon was the greatest player I ever saw. Jordan had Kukoc, Longley, Horace Grant, Kerr, Paxton,
    BJ Armstrong, Oakley, Dennis Rodman, Pippin. Rodman/Pippin/Jordan could all guard positions 1-5.
    Pippin DPOY candidate. Can you see that defense with those 3 players. No, Olajuwon never had that.

    I will always “Rings” are about who is around you. Individual won’t win championships. Teams win championships.
    I always point to Iverson who managed to get to the final as the only offensive threat and surrounded by basically
    defenders. Somehow they got throw the weak East. But in the finals they just keyed on stopping Iverson.
    It was over after that.

    If Olajuwon had more help......he would have won more. The greatest ability is, “availability.” Sampson ailing health
    plus thanks for reminding me, Lucas/Wiggins/Lloyd removal created a time period of unavail “ability “
     
    #24 ApacheWarrior, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
    clos4life, TWS1986 and Deckard like this.
  5. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    He wants his damn respect!
     
    pippendagimp likes this.
  6. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    LeBron #2.

    2011 is hard to overcome. Not even that he lost, but that he had complete dud games. That same Mavs team wiped out Kobe and the Thunder, so they weren't a joke to lose to; but LeBron's performance was inexcusable.

    Ever since then he didn't really have any finals losses that hurt his legacy imo, I know others will disagree and shout 4-7 or something.
     
    plutoblue11 likes this.
  7. Pistol Pete

    Pistol Pete Contributing Member
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    I remember watching the game against the Nuggets where Sampson screwed up his knee. He was never the same.
     
    ApacheWarrior likes this.
  8. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    Not liking because Sampson screwed up his knee......just saw him as too frail. Kinda mechanical. I’m not a fan of David
    Robinson; but I wish Sampson could dribble like Robinson and had been as durable.

    No star quadruple teamed gets a championship. Not Olajuwon....not Jordan......not LeBron......not Shaq. They better
    have other go to stars nowadays and then. Harden knows how this feels. Doesn’t have 4 all stars like Curry did.

    Westbrook tore his quadriceps muscle before the playoffs.......if AD tore his quads before the playoffs;
    doubt LeBron gets this ring this year.
     
    clos4life and hakeem94 like this.
  9. TimDuncanDonaut

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    Not a jordan fan, but jordan > LeBron.

    Let's not fall into recency bias nor be prisoner of the moment. Be logical.

    Hakeem knows what he's talking about.
     
    GotGame15, Ramo$e and JumpMan like this.
  10. split41

    split41 Member

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    ...Rondo? lol
     
  11. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    ??????

    You root for a team that has a 6'4 35 year old forward who can't dunk. PJ Tucker passes for "physical" now. I'd take Maxwell over PJ Tucker and I'd take Kenny over Gordon. Robert Covington is a center. But the Talent is better? Wow. If the guys in the 90's played by today's rules, they'd adjust and be fine. I think they'd enjoy the increased freedom. I don't know how you'd keep Jordan under 45 per game though. (If you can't touch him?) If these cats today had to play by the 90's rules (with hand checking), you'd see a big difference in their performance.
     
    #31 TEXNIFICENT, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  12. RHU525

    RHU525 Member

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    Jordan spent his whole career scoring on guys 3 inches shorter than him. Then he got to the paint and most bigs besides the all stars were big stiffs. Even without handcheckkng it’s much harder score now cuz there defenders are soo much longer and more athletic than back in the day. Just look at how the chase down block has evolved over time.

    Like I said I love Maxwell and Kenny but they would not start over Harden and Westbrook. PG position now is just soo much better and the skill level is exponentially better. Humans evolve over time with better medicine and science and dieting. Jordan was a once a generation athlete, but a lot of the other guys would struggle today.


    Tell me how talent isn’t better. There were maybe 10 real stars back in Jordan’s hey day. I could make a case that the 3rd best player in Jordan’s ERA played on his team.

    Legit Super Stars

    Jordan
    Hakeem
    Barkley
    Malone
    Robinson

    Other Stars
    Pippen
    Reggie
    Ewing
    Stockton
    Payton


    The significantly more stars now and the role players are much much better.
     
  13. Outlier

    Outlier Member

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    How are you discrediting Jordan for sticking with one team? That's even more admirable than what LeBron has done. You act like LeBron changing teams happened to him, and that he didn't change teams by HIS choice. Wtf?

    HE started the movement of stars hopping teams.

    Jordan not interfering as much with personnel moves makes him an easier player to build around, and less paranoia of him leaving at any chance he gets.
     
    JumpMan likes this.
  14. Major

    Major Member

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    Winning championships with multiple teams in a wider variety of scenarios is a stronger resume than doing it that the same place with the same core over and over. An Elon Musk is more impressive for having built Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX, the Boring Company, etc than a Mark Zuckerberg who's only had all his success at one company - it proves Musk can succeed in more ways. It doesn't mean that Zuckerberg is a bad CEO or couldn't succeed at multiple companies - we just simply don't know. It just leaves open the question of whether all his success is due to one brilliant situation, and could he actually take over another company and still have success?
     
  15. Outlier

    Outlier Member

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    Terrible analogy. This is Elon Musk going to Facebook to work with Mark Zuckerberg and then leaving to go work with Bezos at Amazon.
     
  16. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    Clyde Drexler
    Chris Mullin
    Dominique Wilkins
    Tim Hardaway
    Shawn Kemp
    Shaquille O'neal
    Detlef Shrempf
    Kevin Johnson
    Mitch Richmond
    Reggie Miller
    Penny Hardaway
    Chris Webber
    Grant Hill
    Alonzo Mourning
    Glen Rice
    Jason Kidd
    Kevin Garnett
    Kobe Bryant (Young)
    Allen Iverson (Young
    Steve Nash (young)
    Tim Duncan (young)
    Ray Allen (young)
    Stephon Marbury (Young)
    Dirk Nowitzki (Young)
    Antoine Walker (Young)
    Glenn Robinson
    Jamal Mashburn
    Derrick Coleman

    ALL PLAYED IN THE LEAGUE THEN (90's). So these guys couldn't play now? Stop it. And for the Reco

    What's really funny is when you consider the 90's missed Lebron by just 5 years and he's STILL DOMINATING RIGHT NOW @ 35 years old. Jordan won his last one at age 34.
     
    #36 TEXNIFICENT, Oct 30, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  17. Zboy

    Zboy Contributing Member

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    Jordan would never melt under pressure and choke like Lebron did against the Mavs in the finals.

    Jordan would also not let Kawhi lock him up like Lebron did in the Fianls. Ray Allen saved him the embarrassment.
     
  18. RHU525

    RHU525 Member

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    You are just proving my point. You named a bunch of young guys. They were like Rookies when Jordan was winning. He never had to play or beat any of them to win a ship when they were even close to their peak. It just proving to me that the league was getting better. I only named the guys who he played against that were in their primes.
    Mullin is a nice player but he would struggle to play defense in this new perimeter oriented game. I don’t think he’d be a star in this new league at all.

    This really boils down to how you feel about Reggie Miller. Is he any better than Ray Allen or a Klay Thompson? Like those guys were the 3rd or 4th best players on a team that won a championship. And Reggie was suppose to be the best player on his team. Those guys have very similar games to Reggie. I do think he’s better than Klay, but I think Ray Allen could be better.
     
  19. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    How many guys on this list wouldn't be STARS now? Hell Westbrook can't shoot and puts up monster numbers.

    Clyde Drexler
    Chris Mullin
    Dominique Wilkins
    Tim Hardaway
    Shawn Kemp
    Shaquille O'neal
    Detlef Shrempf
    Kevin Johnson
    Mitch Richmond
    Reggie Miller
    Penny Hardaway
    Chris Webber
    Grant Hill
    Alonzo Mourning
    Glen Rice
    Jason Kidd
    Kevin Garnett
    Kobe Bryant (Young)
    Allen Iverson (Young
    Steve Nash (young)
    Tim Duncan (young)
    Ray Allen (young)
    Stephon Marbury (Young)
    Dirk Nowitzki (Young)
    Antoine Walker (Young)
    Glenn Robinson
    Jamal Mashburn
    Derrick Coleman
     
    #39 TEXNIFICENT, Oct 30, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  20. banzai

    banzai Contributing Member

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    Ralph was awesome... just got hurt a lot, then Hakeem got into it with management about contract. Product of the 90’s era. See Scottie Pippen. Then Hakeem got motivated and turned it on.
     
    saleem likes this.

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