Hakeem "Arguably" a top echelon center of all time?

Personally, I don't think so. Russell was the consummate teammate. He was constantly striving not for personal glory, but for the good of the team. He had offensive skills that most never saw because he deferred to guys like K.C. Jones, Bob Cousey, and John Havlicek. Wilt would never have deferred to those guys, never would have concentrated on being a defensive force, and never would have allowed anyone else to be the leading scorer.

Russell is the best team player ever because he made his entire team better with his teamwork, chemistry, hard work, and dedication. Wilt may have been the single most dominant player ever, but in my book he tied for fourth all time as a basketball player (1-Russell, 2-Kareem, 3-Jordan, 4-Wilt/Dream) because he was a one-dimensional player. He was awesome at that one dimension, but he was still a one-trick pony.

 

Anyone that questions whether or not Wilt was/is the best basketball player ever, watch the episode "You Can't Blame" featuring Wilt on ESPN Classic (or was it just ESPN?). That episode made me into a believer that this man is better than Jordan (I felt Jordan was better but not anymore). Seriously, it details how/why Wilt always came up short against Bill Russell's team.

 

Hakeem was the most dominate center defensively, since Russell retired. Dream was as dominate on the offensive end as any other center since Kareem. Dream also won a championship without another allstar player, aka Kobe, Magic, Worthy, West, Baylor.

 

people tend to forget that hakeem revolutionized the post position. he brought "skill" to the position. ball-handling, shooting, quickness, passing, etc. he was the first of all these versatile PF/C's and everyone forgets that. for that reason alone he's a top 4 if not top 3 Center all-time. regardless of the fact he dominated for nearly a decade and battered the other great big men of the era like robinson, shaq, ewing, etc.

 

Yeah, Kareem, Mo Malone, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, and every other center that played before 1984 were skilless brutes, bowling over there competitors in the paint like an NFL lineman at the local buffet .

 

nope, and the reason he deferred on offense was b/c he just wasn't that good at it, unless he was purposely missing shots and free throws to also defer. you defer to those who are better than you at something. wilt, shaq, kareem, and hakeem wouldn't have been deferring.


and to tie in with that "you can't blame" thing, one of the guys on there said that even though they didn't keep the stat, wilt got more blocks each game than russell. one-trick pony, indeed.

 

Now, don't get those guys confused with Shaq.

 

There is Dream, and then there is everyone else.

 

When Shaq retires, I think he and Dream will be just below Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. But they will be ahead of the second tier big men, like Walton, Moses Malone...

I think thats a fair place for them. On any given night, they could have dominated any big man in history, including Wilt, Kareem, Mikan...anyone. But they lack what the pantheon centers had...Russell has 11 titles, Kareem has the MVPs and championships, Wilt changed the game as an icon.

Dream and Shaq were just as dominant as Kareem, but for shorter stretches. Neither have the championships of Russell, and neither has had the iconic presence of Wilt.

I love Dream, and I would take him ahead of Shaq, but i don't consider a slap in the face to put he and Shaq on the same level. Dream was a better player but Shaq has more titles and finals appearances.

 

No good at it? You must not look at history. Russell scored over 22 PPG in college, and when Havlicek, Cousey, Jones, or any of the other Celtics got injured, fouled out, or were for some other reason unavilable, it was Russell who picked up the slack. Though I cannot find the stats broken out, I know Russell also upped his PPG in the playoffs.

Yes, Jones, Cousey, and other Celtics throughout the years were better on offense than Russell, which is one of the big reasons he deferred. A smart player will always play to his team's strengths and if someone is a better shooter, scorer, or defender, the smart player will allow that player to do what they do best.

Russell was also a big part of the genesis of the "fast break" in the NBA. Averaging over 22 RPG, Russell controlled the boards and also knew how to pass (not just on the fast break, he averaged 4.3 APG through his career), meaning that other guys would have the scoring opportunities that Bill gave up by concentrating on the boards.

Being the "best" basketball player in history involves being more than an offensive force. It involves being able to do everything well (15 PPG, 22 RPG, and 4 APG), but most of all involves knowing how to win. Even moreso, it involves being able to win in the playoffs against the best competition. Russell is the pinnacle of success, one of the most well rounded players in history, and did it with various supporting casts and stars over a 13 season career. Through that time, Russell was the only constant and after then, Boston never enjoyed anywhere near the same kind of success.

That may well be true, but Russell played at the same time as Wilt and completely dominated "The Stilt" over the course of their careers. It is extremely difficult for me to consider Wilt better than Russell given the 9 ring disparity.

Russell was a one-trick pony, too. All he did was win championships.

 

o please....he never had the will to be the best, and that was what seperated him from russell. ive said this before and ill say it again. I know you cant compare players of different eras, but if i could draft any center from any era it would be Dream. put wilt in the nba today, and at his prime he wouldnt be quite as dominate as shaq when he was in his prime. MJ is by far the best nba player of all time, simply because he had NO weaknesses. MJ could score, defend, and make his teammates better. The only other player that came close to dominating both ends of the floor was Dream. Russell was a great teammate and defender, but he wasnt a great scorer. Wilt was a dominant scorer and good defender, but he didnt make his teammates better. magic was great, but he wasnt a great scorer or good defender. Bird was the same.

 

1. Wilt at his best
2. Dream at his best
3. Kareem at his best
4. Russell at his best
5. Shaq at his beastiest

Wilt one of a kind
Dream had it all
Kareem tall-skilled-the sky hook (Legit 7'-01")
Russell- great defender at 6'9" great team leader but the competition(?)
Shaq- Brute strength beyond comparison

Wilt was the greatest scorer the game has seen.
Dream was so freakish athletic and he could do it all, he had handles, all the offense, great defense and he played against great competition (all at 6'-10")

They are my top two.