1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Hacked E-Mail Data Prompts Calls for Changes in Climate Research

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MojoMan, Nov 28, 2009.

  1. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    Beat me to it. While the study shows the scientists venting and coming off as petty and vindictive it doesn't show fraud. Considering these were meant as private emails it shouldn't surprise anyone that there is overblown ranting in them. I'm guessing if the private emails from Global Warming skeptics was found it would also paint them in a very bad light.
     
  2. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    35,985
    Likes Received:
    36,840
    Now there's an interesting idea.
     
  3. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Now the shoe is on the other foot. After this whole Climategate mess, the die-hard defenders of the AGW alarmism status-quo are the ones in denial now:

    [RQUOTER]Climategate: Who are the 'Deniers' Now?

    A couple of years ago, supporters of global warming theory began referring to skeptics as “deniers” — implying that anyone who doubted climate change should be lumped with Holocaust deniers. Now the shoe is on the other foot, thanks to the eye-popping e-mail dump that hit the Internet recently and quickly became known as “Climategate.” The response of much of the global-warming “community” has been … denial.

    A New York Times story on the Copenhagen climate summit declared, “In Face of Skeptics, Experts Affirm Climate Peril.” The U.S. negotiator at Copenhagen, Jonathan Pershing, said the hacked e-mails have “no fundamental bearing” on the summit. Al Gore waved off the controversy as so much “sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Meanwhile, the Environmental Protection Agency went right ahead with its “endangerment finding,” laying the basis for the regulatory equivalent of a tax on greenhouse gases.

    ....

    Perhaps the most damning item in the hacked material is a document filled with the notes of programmer Ian “Harry” Harris, who tried to put the CRU’s computer files and raw data — temperature readings from 1901 to 2006 — in some sort of order. “It’s botch after botch,” he wrote. “… this should have all been rewritten from scratch a year ago. … As far as I can see, this renders the [weather] station counts totally meaningless. … What the hell is supposed to happen here? Oh yeah — there is no ‘supposed.’ I can make it up. So I have.”

    Last week, Australian Willis Eschenbach found evidence that scientists played games when homogenizing some of the raw data from Australia: They appear to have fiddled with readings to show warmer temperature trends than the data would justify. “People who say that ‘Climategate was only about scientists behaving badly, but the data is OK’ are wrong,” Eschenbach wrote. “At least one part of the data is bad, too.”

    Clive Crook, who blogs at The Atlantic, initially dismissed Climategate but reconsidered: “The stink of intellectual corruption is overpowering. … this scandal is not at the margins of the politicized IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] process. ... It goes to the core of that process.” It’s not clear yet where all of this will lead, but as the blogger Richard Fernandez aptly put it, “The smoke of doubt has entered the temple.” At the very least, it’s time for AGW hard-liners to climb down from their pulpits and stop treating every dissent as evidence of evil.[/RQUOTER]

    And of course, that includes the AGW hard-liners here on this board.
     
  4. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    Mojorge does it bother you at all that the hacking of these emails was a criminal act? Or do you condone this type of action?
     
  5. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    If this information was obtained illegally, or to put it another way, if it was stolen, the perpetrators of this act are criminals and should be prosecuted accordingly. I have read a lot of articles and comments on this topic, and I have not encountered even one person who believes otherwise.

    So, now that that question is answered and resolved, we can return to the topic of this thread, which is the obvious need for reform in the conduct of climate science.
     
  6. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    Using the word "hacked" seems to indicate that the information was obtained illegally no?
     
  7. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    This is such a non-story. Please stop posting in this thread already.
     
  8. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    The cat is out of the bag. There will be no return to the previous mind-set of "we are the experts, just trust us" on this issue. At least not for most people.

    If there are still some people who want to stick their heads in the sand, effectively turning their brains off and blindly deferring to these so-called "experts," that is up to those people.

    However, these people remind me of a memorable quote by P.T. Barnum:

    "There is a sucker born every minute."

    This branch of science needs to be brought to heel, and held accountable with the same safeguards and under the same scrutiny as every other branch of hard science. The days of indulgence and foolish conduct are over for the field of climate science. The time for reform has come.
     
  9. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    ^^^Hilarious. Thanks for that. I needed a laugh.
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    So we should give more credence to internet bloggers than the AP and the rest of scientific community?
     
  11. Depressio

    Depressio Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,416
    Likes Received:
    366
    That's it. I've snapped. You've got me. I'm sick of your crap, MojoMan.

    I'm sick of you persistently attaching the work "alarmism" to AGW. Why can't you just say "AGW"? Why does it always have to be "AGW alarmism"? Oh right, you're just using semantics to try and further downplay AGW -- everyone that believes in it MUST be an "alarmist", right?

    I'm sick of you using the phrase "so-called" in front of "scientist" and "expert". These people have PhD's and other advanced degrees in this specific field making them, by definition, scientists and experts. There's no "so-called" about it. I'd talk more about this, put I'm off to see my so-called doctor (PhD, MD). Again, using semantics: the main support for conservative argument.

    I'm sick of you declaring people who believe AGW is a problem are busy "sticking their heads in the sand". Anyone who cannot see two sides of the argument is doing that, including yourself. Why can't you recognize the significance of the 3,996 emails/documents that were hacked that weren't questionable? It's funny you latched onto 4 of them. You find 0.1% of the hacked emails questionable, but not the other 3,996? Does that mean they're all good science? Wait, you're ignoring the other 3,996? Get your head out of the sand.

    I'm sick of you using flavor phrases like "the cat is out of the bag." No, the cat is not out of the bag, people just think the tiny hole in the bag means the cat isn't there. Again, let me remind you: 4 emails out of 4000 documents. Those 4 have been explained by scientists as to what they refer to, as well, but you will have nothing of it. I guess you're too busy listening to the sand that your head is stuck in.

    I understand the anti-AGW argument, I really do, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous. This comic sums it up well:

    [​IMG]

    P.S. - This comic is as good as evidence as your fictional picture of the planet from 12,000 years ago.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    It is not an either/or proposition.

    It is time for everyone to turn their brains on and pay attention to what is happening with this issue.

    It is not desirable to make decisions based on who is right, but rather based on what is right. On this issue, like pretty much all others, people will be right on some points and wrong on others. It is foolish to assume, especially in a field of science, that any one person or group of people are always going to be right about their findings and conclusions. It is essential to the scientific process that propostions that are labeled as scientific undergo a scrutiny that is rigorous and transparent. Shutting out so-called 'skeptics' from this process undermines the credibility of the scientists whose work is being coddled in this way, and also their findings, quite significantly.

    On a more personal basis, developing an understanding of this matter (or any other) by an all or nothing approach, based solely on a one-sided presentation delivered by an agenda driven group who has demonstrated a remarkable dedication to shutting out any input on the topic that contradicts their own, is not a very intelligent approach to developing a true understanding of a topic.

    It is time to open the doors and allow the debate to begin in earnest. The AGW alarmism crowd has dominated the scientific review processes and the journal publication processes in the field of climate science for quite a long time now. They have refused to release their underlying data and the parameters used in developing the forecasts upon which so much of their prognostications are based. As shown by the Climategate emails, these 'scientists' have manipulated data to fit the conclusions they support, and have even deleted raw data that underlies their findings.

    It is important that we be able to have confidence in climate science as a truly open and thorough scientific enterprise. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

    Unless the AGW alarmists are afraid that they might be found out as frauds, why not open this up and let everyone take a look? If they really are the trustworthy experts that the AGW alarmism crowd makes them out to be, then what do they have to be afraid of?
     
  13. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    It is extremely ironic that you would make such a statement considering that you are simply the opposite side of the (strawman) coin you put out there.
     
  14. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    I use the term AGW alarmism to distinguish the AGW alarmists from others, such as myself, who are inclined to believe that anthropogenic global warming (AGW) exists, but probably to such a small degree that it is not particularly worthy of note.

    Before anyone starts on the pollution thing, I am in favor of cleaning up the environment and doing a lot more to reduce pollution. But it also does not follow for pollution that we need massive government involvement lead by huge bureaucracies funded by enormous tax increases. To the extent that is what the left proposes as a solution for reducing pollution, I will be against that as well.
     
  15. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,853
    Likes Received:
    41,361
    Would it really make a net difference? The GW Denialists aren't fighting the same fight. They don't really have much/any credibility to lose to begin with, so if you lose one, you just go on to the next dude.

    One article/expert gets discredited? OK, then you move on to a Russian guy nobody has ever heard of claiming it's solar flares. Or to the next guy who claims a new ice age is coming. It's all the same to them. They don't have to present any alternative that is consistent or coherent, and never have had to. The game (at least of the $$$ that supports them) is to simply sow as much discord and disbelief as possible and delay any actual public movement on GW. The GW Denier industry has never been about credibility or true science, it simply exists to counter anybody who wants to do anything about GW.
     
  16. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    That is a good point but my original point is that any personal emails between friends and colleagues is likely to have rants and vents that won't come off very good especially if taken out of context.

    It comes as no surprise to me that in the hacked emails there are some ugly comments made by the scientists about their skeptics. I doubt any personal communication from anyone wouldn't have some ugly comments regarding people who were critical of their work.
     
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    Of course that is the whole point of having a climate summit. Your argument though is that we should ignore the larger issue since you think it is only being driven by alarmism. Instead you are pointing to side issues that other analysis points to as not being that relevant to the overall issue.
    I have always said, and I believe most climate scientists have also, that there is a lot of uncertainties in the models but there is a matter of policy that is involved here based upon what those models are telling us. IN regard to anthropogenic global warming given that the risks of not doing anything are high, those are risk not certainties, and that there are a ton of side benefits then it seems obvious to me that addressing them is the right thing to do.

    You're right that science should be scrutinized and there is 30 years of scrutiny in regard to the theory of global warming. That said this is an area with a policy component in regard to what should be done. Your argument seems to be one that either puts this issue out of context or else misunderstand science. Theories in science always posess some measure of doubt, in the sense that nothing is ever 100% proven but that the probabilities get higher. In the case of global warming what this so called "Climate Gates" shows is that while yes these scientists have a very low low opinion of their skeptics, not nice but not one that undermines their science.

    Now your counter is that such and such blogger says this does. Well I question what body of evidence the blogger is bringing and also what methodology he used to analyze that material. What you have posted strikes me as opinion based upon cherry picking the material versus an indepth analysis.

     
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    So basically even though you acknoledge a problem you would rather stick with the status quo for ideological reasons.
     
  19. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153

Share This Page