Guys, you get pissed off that Tmac is a jumpshooter yet youi want Kobe

No offense, but this is the funniest thing I've in a while on these boards. I hate the Spurs and Duncan, but to call him a "serviceable forward" is laughable.

 

What your "real facts" are conveniently and idiotically ignoring is that kobe's "jumpshots" are often the result of drives to the basket, and once he has the d falling back, then he will pull up for the baby jumper from 8 to 10 ft. That in no way compares to tmac's "jumpshots" which are in truth contested 24 footers fading away without so much as probing the defense with a dribble or two. I guess you would have to actually watch basketball to know the difference.

 

Just so you know, I regularly talk to melo061 online and he is a HUGE Laker fan...I am sure his post count is off the chart on LG.

And when the hell have you seen Kobe take a baby 8 to 10ft jumpshot? Kobe's 2 primary moves are the fadeaway from the postup position (ala MJ), and a simple 1-2 dribble pullup from 18-20ft out on the wing. Kobe is certainly not a player that attacks, attacks attacks off the dribble....like T-Mac, he takes ridiculously tough shots as well as stupid pullup 3's.

And guys, no Kobe is not way more efficient than T-Mac. They are averaging virtually the same FG %, same 3pt %, and while Kobe's FT % is better T-Mac's TO's are lower and assists higher.

 

kobe doesn't attack the basket as much as a Wade, but he attacks much more than tracy and he's a better pure shooter also.....and he better when it comes to defense, clutch ability, the ability to go off, and playing with passion........besides passing the ball there isn't really anything you can say that Tracy does better than Kobe.............

 

He doesn't attack "much more" than Tracy. 22% of T-mac's shots are close/inside as opposed to 25% from Kobe...that is less than a 1 shot difference near the rim. Kobe averages about 2 more FTA's per game, which you can attribute to one more shot at the rim in which he is fouled and goes to the line. That is approximately 2 shots at most in which Kobe is taking inside and around the basket.

Is Kobe a better pure shooter? Yes, but this year T-mac is shooting 2% EFG better on jumpshots.

Does Kobe go off more than T-mac? yes, but he has taken more than double the amount of 30 FGA games since the 05-06 season than T-Mac has in all 4 years with Houston. I believe the number is 38-18.

Does Kobe play with more passion? Sure. That passion also gets the best of him quite often, as he goes out of the offensive gameplan, makes frustration fouls among other things that you just won't see T-Mac doing on the floor.

Yes, I agree, Kobe is certainly a better player than T-mac (he is simply the best player in the league), but at the same time pretty much any coach or non-biased fan will call T-Mac at least a top 10 player in the league, which people here overlook far too often when they dig for reasons to why the team is losing (which, IMO, comes down to execution and some flaws with the coaching). But, in style of play T-Mac and Kobe are as similar as 2 superstars can get. And that was the point of Melo061's post...if everyone here is crying about T-Mac and his shot selection, bringing Kobe in won't remedy that.

 

kobe looks to score more when attacking the rim instead of passing up a easy layup for a stupid ass pass out to the 3 point line...and Kobe is a lot "stronger" taking it to the rack.....tracy looks like Kevin Durant when he takes it inside...the problem is Durant is a 19 year old rookie and Tmac is a 10 year vet........before the season is over kobe will be avg. his 10 + FT attempts a game, while tmac will be at his usual clip of 5 or 6........

this is about more than "shot selection"...not only does t-wack take bad shot after bad shot, but he also plays with no enthusiasm and is not the same leader or clutch player that Kobe is.........bringing kobe (eventhough it won't happen) would solve a lot of this teams problems..........especially when it comes to heart..........

 

Kobe will average his 10+ FTA, but also will average his 23+ FGA, whereas T-Mac will be averaging 20 FGA to go along with 7 FTA (where he has been at the past few seasons). When Kobe had another big time scorer with him like T-mac does, Kobe was between 7=8 FTA as well as 20 FGA, just like T-Mac is now.

Kobe's "heart" won't fix the poor shooting of the role players, won't fix RA's refusal to reshuffle the lineup and to use more set plays instead of letting the clueless players run an offense based off instincts, won't fix Yao TO problems, won't fix the quality of PG's on this team, lack of production from the PF position, etc...

As for clutch play, the Rockets haven't been terrible this year. T-Mac came up very clutch vs the Kings, Bobcats and Memphis, but lack of production from other players lost the Kings and Grizzlies game. He was very solid down the stretch vs the Jazz, Pistons and Lakers, which were all wins. He was injured for the 2nd Dallas game, and his lack of production along with others lost that game. And while Kobe is the better clutch player, he statistically is always a worse % shooter in the clutch (according to 82games), and IMO has more games than T-Mac in which he simply shoots the team out of the game at the end.

Bottom line is Kobe is an upgrade from T-mac, but a minimal one IMO. Right now T-Mac and Yao are the last players on the roster to be concerned about...the coaching, Bonzi, Rafer, James, Francis, Batier, Hayes, Scola, Deke and Head are all far bigger problems than our 2 stars, who are both having very solid seasons.

 

he was solid against Utah...he was faulty against Detroit....and shyed away down the stretch in our opener......

that may be, because he has to do so much for his team...Kobe has proven to be clutch in both the reg. season AND the playoffs............tmac is still missing in the ladder..........

I'll agree to disagree...while this isn't a perfect team around tmac I do believe he has plenty of talent to work with and has had plenty of talent for a while now to at least get out of the 1st round.......and to see Kobe lead his team to the playoffs with the type of talent he had around him makes me think with a legit all star like Yao and role players like bonzi, james, scola, etc. that he could do much more with this team.......playing with passion and determination is one of those things that can really either make or break a sports team, and when other guys don't see their leader playing with passion it really has a snowball effect on the entire team.

 

OUR ROLE PLAYERS BLOW RIGHT NOW! Do you not get the point? Bringing in Kobe will not make them shoot better. You are totally ignoring Nitro's posts and you are selectively responding to him with baseless facts. T-Mac not clutch in the playoffs? Have you been watching the same games as the rest of us? Our role players have absolutely killed us the past couple of years. T-Mac can only do so much by himself. Battier, Francis, MJ and Rafer and Bonzi are all shooting below 41%. That is 5/8 of our rotation! Once again, bringing in Kobe will not make them shoot any better.

You are completely ignoring the facts presented by Nitro so you end up spewing BS that is pure speculation. Bring in Kobe and blah blah blah will happen.

Bottom line is that RA is an idiot, our players need set plays. And the role players suck.

Bringing in Kobe for T-Mac won't change any of that.

 

Faulty against Detroit? He went 3-6 in final minutes, and continually got the ball to Yao when he was hot. Did he violently take it to the rim? No, but he did his job.

As for the Laker game, he had a big 2nd half to give them the lead, and was the guy to make the game winning assist. They gave up the lead because the PG's kept turning the ball over...I think they took maybe 2 shots in total in the final 2min, while the Lakers took about 6.

T-Mac's stats in clutch last year in the playoffs-

http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06HOU6E.HTM

As you see, T-Mac was very agressive down the stretch with 40% of his FGA at the basket, and his passing and ballhandling stats are out of this world. He was the guy to carry the team in the 2nd half of every game in which the team went into a halftime hole (due to forcing the ball into Yao to start the game), and he was very clutch in every home game. He has the 3rd highest PPG average in NBA playoff HISTORY, and his stats overall have been better in every playoff series as opposed to regular season. He comes up when it matters.


[qute]I'll agree to disagree...while this isn't a perfect team around tmac I do believe he has plenty of talent to work with and has had plenty of talent for a while now to at least get out of the 1st round.......and to see Kobe lead his team to the playoffs with the type of talent he had around him makes me think with a legit all star like Yao and role players like bonzi, james, scola, etc. that he could do much more with this team.......playing with passion and determination is one of those things that can really either make or break a sports team, and when other guys don't see their leader playing with passion it really has a snowball effect on the entire team.[/QUOTE]

T-mac had very little talent to work with last year, especially when Yao went down, and they still won 52 games. In both of T-mac's healthy seasons with the Rockets he has been the guy that has lead the Rockets to 50 win seasons. Right now there is a big problem with the coaching and role players (although, if you exclude games in which T-Mac and Rafer have missed, as well as games vs Dallas, the team is 12-5), while T-Mac is shooting his best %'s from both 2 and 3 since arriving in Houston, has as many 40pt games already as all of last year, and his other numbers are right on par with what has made him a _x all star. Yao has been very solid this year. Neither of these guys are the problem at the moment.

 

I'm not "ignoring" his points...I even agreed partly and have made post about this teams weaknesses....but one of the biggest problems with this team right now is the "passion" they are playing with...there is a reason why Yao called the team "soft"....soft doesn't have to do with missing open jump shots, it's the "mental" and "emotional" aspect of the game.......let us take a flashback moment.............I remember watching game 2 of the mavericks series a couple of years ago when tmac displayed so much heart and emotion on the court.....the dunk on bradley, the firey eyes, wanting the ball down the stretch....it was amazing to see how it translated over to Yao (who was screaming after a dunk), Bob Sura (who was hitting 3's...he wasn't a great shooter), Mike James, Ryan Bowen, Jon Barry, etc............the point is your leaders "set the tone"....that is why they are paid so much money..........emotion is one of those things that makes some human beings do the impossible......tmac lacks emotion and intensity a lot of nights when he steps on the floor....that in turn effects his game and his teammates......................intensity and aggression more than shooting, fast breaking, executing, etc. is this teams biggest problem right now.....lack of heart can have an impact on so many areas of the game.........

 

yes he settled for bad off-balanced jump shots on a couple of possesions..........the rockets execution was horrible down the stretch in that ball game...they were fortunate to come out with a W...

no he wasn't...game 7 he decided to pull a dissapearing act in the final 5 minutes...that's usually when your best players take over........the fact that he has NEVER been out of the 1st round shows that he hasn't come up when it matters.......

even more of a reason why he should've gotten out of the 1st round.

the fact that he is soft is a problem.

 

the disgrace is trying to compare Tmac to Kobe right now...

now thats a laugh...

all thing aside...

id rather have and watch a player with heart... and we lose 82 games...

then to have and watch a player like Tmac with no heart and we win 60 games...


we could win the next 40 games... and win everygame in the playoffs...

and I still wouldnt like Tmac as a player...

 

Let's check the play by play...

http://www.nba.com/games/20071030/HOULAL/playbyplay.html

T-Mac was 1-1 from the field, and 4-4 from the line in the 4th, to go along 3 assists (including the game winner). Nice to see that you are completely making up things as we go along...

Once again, to the play by play...

http://www.nba.com/games/20070505/UTAHOU/playbyplay.html

T-Mac scored 8pts in 4th quarter, including 2 assists in the final 3 minutes. Yao went nuts that quarter, with 14pts, so T-Mac was not in the mode of, "Let me take over this game with my scoring." Offensive in total was not the problem that quarter, as they scored 24pts on a very tough Jazz team...defense and rebounding was the killer.

When your top player has 29/13/5/3 on 12-25 shooting, and your 2nd option goes for 29/6 yet you LOSE, that is on your role players. And what lost the series is what lost the Dallas series 2 years ago...getting badly outplayed at the PG and PF positions.

Huh? Having little talent is more incentive to get out of the first round against a very tough and balanced Utah Jazz team?

And the fact that our shooters can't shoot, our motion offense has no motion and our PF's literally do not produce are far, far bigger problems that need to be dealt with long before we think about trading our top 10 player.

 

Nitro, you are wasting your time arguing with this guy. He is just pulling things out of his ass.

 

i was referring to the detroit game....

oh yippee....like i said one of those FGs came with a few seconds left when the game was already over....his last basket before then was around the 5 minute mark......so basically besides that meaningless bucket at the end, the guy went scoreless down the stretch in that game......I don't care what the hell his stats were in the playoffs you have to be "great"...not "good" like he was in that game......you guys sticking up for tmac choking and being a wuss is just flat out ridiculous.........I wonder what the excuse will be this year????

 

yes I'm just pulling "tmac is a soft choke artist" out of my ass despite all the people on this board, around town, on the radio, etc. who see the same thing.........................you make so much sense.

 

Whoops. In the Detroit game he was going off ball and simply catching and shooting. The one shot he didn't catch and shoot on he was wide open and missed.

Let's see what the Rockets did in the final 4 minutes of the game, incluidng made shots, missed shots, assists, timeouts, etc...-

[HOU 90-91] Yao Jump Shot: Made (24 PTS)
Assist: Battier (3 AST)
[HOU 91-91] Yao Free Throw 1 of 1 (25 PTS)
3:38 Yao Turnaround Jump Shot: Missed
[HOU 93-94] Yao Slam Dunk Shot: Made (27 PTS)
Assist: McGrady (12 AST)

2:14 Yao Turnover:Lost Ball (4 TO) Steal:Harpring (1 ST)
[HOU 95-96] Hayes Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
Assist: McGrady (13 AST)

Harpring Foul:Shooting (3 PF) 0:57
0:57
[HOU 96-99] Yao Free Throw 1 of 2 (28 PTS)
0:57
[HOU 97-99] Yao Free Throw 2 of 2 (29 PTS)

0:19 Team Timeout:Regular
0:19 Hayes Substitution replaced by Head
0:09
[HOU 99-101] McGrady Driving Layup Shot: Made (29 PTS)


The Rockets went 4-5 from the field, including 3-3 from the line. Would you want that replaced by even the best of clutch players, like Kobe, taking up those shots instead? The problem is they were trading 2's for 3's, and in the final 4min the Jazz had 2 3's after they grabbed the offensive rebound, and then the game sealer was Boozer grabbing the offensive rebound and hitting 2 clutch free throws in the final seconds.

And once again, in the clutch in last year's playoffs, T-mac went from being an 80% jumpshooter to a 60% jumpshooter, which shows that he went into attack mode and really tried as hard as he could to get the team over the hump. And considering that in every game of the series they were down at halftime and T-Mac had huge 2nd halves in games 1, 2, 5 and 7 to give the team a great oppertunity to win (23pts in 2nd half of first game, 20+ points in 2nd half of game 2, 17pts/6 assists in 2nd half of game 5, 16pts/4 assists in 2nd half of game 7). Stop putting so much blame on him for that series.

 

We aren't debating whether or not T-Mac is soft. Everyone here can agree on that.

You said T-Mac isn't clutch in the playoffs. Nitro disproved that.

You said T-Mac disappeared in x and x game. Nitro disproved that.

You said T-Mac is jump shooter, and Kobe is not. Nitro disproved that.

I don't even know what you are trying to argue here.

 

Unlike Tmac, Kobe doesn't JUST rely on his jumpshots 95% of the time, he actually drives it in. He's faster and more skilled, simple as that. Oh he doesn't quit like Tmac.