Manny, if you'd read my posts you'd see you agree with both of us. I've said from post #2 in this thread that I completely agree that we can all have different tastes in music, and that its certainly legitimate to do so. TheFreak has a particular sensitive spot about Poison and Tesla, and feels he must defend them (maybe because they SUCK), and so continues to blather on about it. OK, TheFreak, if you need outside legitimization to like the bands you like, OK, you can like Tesla and Poison. Happy?
If I cared about "legitimization", I probably wouldn't like Poison (much less openly admit and be proud of it in a public forum) now, would I? I've tried to explain (over and over) that the only reason I've been responding to you is that you continued to say things that were flat-out false. You can bash Poison all you want -- after all, it's been considered "cool" to do so since the early 90s -- and I don't care. Just don't make things up to try to show everyone how bad you think they are ([insert clever remark about how you don't need to make things up, everyone already knows how bad they are]).
Nope, you probably wouldn't. I stand corrected. Not sure what I've said that's false. If your first premise is correct, that we can all have legitimate but different opinions, then it would be impossible for my OPINION to be false. You may THINK that the Tesla and Poison 'bios' were objective, but I would disagree. An 'objective' bio would contain both the good and the bad. The reviews we've talked about contained only good, which means they were objective only if you're silly enough to believe only good things are to be said about the bands. Since you freely admit your admiration of Poison is an embarrassing fact, that could hardly be true, now could it.
1) You defined Tesla as the band that "made ONE BAD COVER". As in "one hit wonder". I pointed out, with facts, that that assertion was false. Whether a band was a one-hit wonder is not a matter of opinion, and is rather easily verifiable, as in this case. That's number 1. 2) You specifically stated "But, its nice to take a review from a site that gives nothing but good reviews." This is again false. What I provided (as well as the info you provided) was not a review, it was a bio, and the site DOES NOT give only positive reviews. That is completely false, and easily verifiable (if you'll notice, they actually rate the albums they review, and every album does not get 5 stars). That's false statement number 2. 3) You indicated that Poison did not have a major effect on the music industry during their career. Another false statement. You tried to use this statement as proof that the site only gives positive reviews, when the statement isn't positive or negative, it's just fact (Poison and bands like them dominated MTV and the airwaves during the late 80s/early 90s, and were a big part of the reason why grunge was so widely embraced, because it supposedly was all about revolting against bands like Poison -- FACT. I'd call that having a major effect on the music industry.). False statement number 3. 4) You stated that I needed "outside legitimization" to like the bands that I like. We've already established that that is false. False statement number 4. Now to your latest post: True. The bios did contain good and bad. From the Tesla bio that I already posted: But all was not well within the band. Tommy Skeoch had been battling an addiction to tranquilizers and his problems worsened to the point where he was asked to leave the band in 1995. Tesla attempted to continue as a quartet for a time, but the chemistry had been irreparably altered, and they broke up in 1996. Most of the bandmembers began playing with smaller outfits, none of which moved beyond a local level. From the Poison bio: Shortly after the release of Swallow This Live, Poison fired Deville due to his increasing addiction of drugs and alcohol. His replacement, Richie Kotzen, made his commercial debut with the band on the 1993 Native Tongue album, which, despite some strong reviews and a hit single, "Stand," was a commercial disappointment. Kotzen was fired during the subsequent tour, and Blues Saraceno became Poison's third guitarist. The band recorded their fifth studio album, Crack a Smile, for release in 1996, but the record was shelved and replaced with the Greatest Hits 1986-1996 disc. None of that seems "all good" to me. What would you like them to say? "These bands suck, The End"? I would think a brief summary of a band's career would contain imperative information such as how they formed, style of music, the names of all their albums, and any current info. That is what the two bios above contain. If you think the information I just included above in this post classifies as "only good", then fine, we'll just agree to disagree. I never said I was embarrassed to like Poison. I thought we went through that. I said I didn't care about the music I listen to being construed as "legitimate". Big difference. I judge what I want to listen to by what I like, not by what is accepted by others. Let me know if you want to go see Poison this summer, Hayes. I'll get you a ticket.
I have always wondered about what constitutes a one-hit wonder. I used to think it was if a band had only 1 top 40 hit on American popular radio according to Billboard. Using that criteria, bands like New Order and the Grateful Dead would be considered one-hit wonders. Also, a lot of hard rock bands it seems would be in the same boat....bands like NIN, Pantera, Slayer, Motorhead, Tool, etc. Hell, some of these bands may have never had a top 40 hit. However, I think that they are all great bands. I feel that it is a tough question to answer. But I do think that the bands that I name are infinitely better than artists like Debby Boone or Rupert Holmes or The Knack, etc. I would be interested to know how you would distinguish bands into the one-hit wonder category. Personally, I think that you have to look at album sales. The Grateful Dead, although not one of my favorites, is a band that I feel is a great band and influential one & I don't know for sure about this...but didn't TGD sell lots of albums in their career? I believe that they did, but I don't know for sure. BTW - Hayes: I know what you are saying, but I think that you are missing my point. TheFreak is entitled to like whoever makes him happy. If that is Tesla and Poison along with others, then you shouldn't feel compelled to give him a hard time about it just because you don't like them. I know it sounds weird for me to say this because it's TheFreak, but I feel with music, no one should be bashed for what they like even if it's something like Hanson or the Spice Girls. Sorry to interrupt...it's refreshing to see someone else tangle with TheFreak for a change, so I'll let the 2 of you get back to it.
It might have started out as a Billboard thing. In fact, I could have been misusing the phrase. I always considered a band that was a 'one hit wonder' to be a band that came to fame through one song, and then slowly disappeared. In the case of the Dead, NIN et al, they would clearly NOT be in this category since they've had sustained support over a long period of time. Not in the gimmick Davey Jones and the Monkeys (sp?) reunion tour. Further it could be one of those bands you see on 'where are they now' because even though they had more than one 'hit' they were only successful for a short period of time. Of course, I really just used it as an exaggerated poke at Telsa, not as a historically correct label for them. It is possible I've missed 'a' point, but not this one. As I've repeated in every post since #2 in this thread, I agree that its cool to like whoever you like. I agree I agree I agree. Could I be any more clear on the subject. I might razz you a little, but is that such a big deal? I don't think so. If SOMEONE is a little defensive cause the bands SOMEONE likes generally suck, that's not really my problem. Now you've done it. No doubt you can shortly expect a post from uber-Spice Girls/Hanson fan, TheFreak, calling you out for using them as your extreme example. Oh damn, did I write 'Extreme,' I wasn't making fun of them TheFreak, I promise...
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Oh, that's a relief. After reading Manny's post I was confused as to why I had blundered into saying 'one hit wonder.' Thanks for clearing that up. 'One hit wonder' is your phrase. I wonder why that came to your mind when you thought of Tesla? Hmmm. I said 'one bad cover,' which is certainly what Tesla will be remembered for, if they are remembered at all. The cover of 'Signs' WAS their biggest hit, right? Whether a band made 'one bad cover' or did more than that is certainly a matter of opinion. OK, review/bio whatever. My mistake. Once you wrote it I tried to think of the worst band I could possibly come up with, and then I tested the site to see what kind of review/bio the site would give. I typed in Poison, and the r/bio was pretty damn positive. Its just my luck that you're a huge Poison fan as well. I haven't looked at every bio on the site, so I'll conceed that my sample must just have been skewed. No. Where did I say that? You are making that up. What I did was point to how over the top positive the bio was about Poison. Writing that they 'had a major effect on the music industry' is a positive statement, at least as written in the bio. If you're contention is that they meant that Poison was so bad, along with their 'big hair' brethren, that they caused the onset of grunge by the masses looking for music with some depth, then yes it would be negative. Its probably true in fact, but I don't see any indication in the bio that its what they meant. No. Again you are reading someone else's posts. I said "IF you need outside legitimization...' You seem to be rather obsessed with the fact that someone could not like Poison and Tesla. You've gone much farther than saying "Hey, I think we can all like different music." Despite me repeatedly stating that there certainly is no problem with people having different musical tastes, you continue to prattle on about it. So, what I'm left with is the feeling that you are really insecure about defending Poison and Tesla (which maybe you should be, since they sucked) and that you're really LOOKING for outside legitimization. You've gotten that now, as several posters have said they also liked Tesla (although not sure that's happened with Poison yet), so you should be able to rest easy. I don't know. The band breaking up is a positive thing, right? What's not positive about one less Poison album? In all seriousness, I did do some searches for reviews that I thought would be more objective (meaning they would say 'these bands suck'). I did find some articles that grouped together Tesla, Poison, Great White, and others, and a couple of them did say they sucked, but I can't say they were that objective. What I meant was that the bio IS overwhelmingly positive. There are factual revelations "so and so got kicked out for drugs" etc, but the review of their music is pretty glowing in both cases. This is what 'negative' sounds like (from a review in TheSynthesis about Poison's reunion tour): "I was never a big Poison fan, though I did own one of their albums, but never listened to it. The only song I liked was of course "Every Rose Has It’s Thorn." I figured that they would put on a good show, but I was a little disappointed. They took forever to assemble their stage, and for all that work, it looked pretty lame. It was a pink and green nightmare. They didn’t have amps onstage, which I found that very odd. With the return of C.C. Deville, the crowds have come back, but there is definitely something missing. The whole show was pomp and pretense, no heart. They played everything you would expect them to play: "Unskinny Bop" (I really hate that song) "Something to Believe In" and all that crap. Brett Micheals had at least three costume changes. But I just wanted them to play their ballad so that I could raise my lighter and leave. I stayed till the end of the set, and just when they started the encore, we decided we had seen enough." Bully for you. Maybe I meant to write that I was embarrassed for you. If that's an olive branch, I'll take it. But with the review on Poison's new tour in mind, I'll pass. You can borrow my lighter if you need one though.
So Manny wants to play nice now after calling me every name in the book in the other forum? I've already said I'm not interested in engaging in personal attacks....I don't know if I'm ready to respond to you yet. Hayes, if you get off on making fun of people for the music they like, that's cool. I had you pegged in my first response in this thread. I had issues with the 'facts' you were throwing out, which is why I kept responding to you in the first place. Feel free to have more fun at my expense, it says more about you than it does me.
Talk about an ego problem. Look buddy, I only ripped you because I'm tired of this routine of manipulating others' words to make yourself look good. The fact is I tried everything I could to have a civil "debate" with you back near the end of November and early December, and I provided logical, thought-out posts with links and facts to back up my argument. You never could refute my facts and links with other facts and links. All you could do was your usual routine of responding with opinions, conjectures, and biting sarcasm tinged with bitterness. So, why in the hell should I take the time to debate with you when you don't even have a clue of how to debate? Maybe, I went over the line, but I don't think that I called you an expletive like a ****head or anything like that (I did use some profanity as adjectives but nothing like a son of a **** or a mutha ****er). If I did, then I am sorry because that was wrong. But I'm not apologizing for calling you Jeff Keith, Billy Bob, polishing your gun, etc. You can forget that. It's obvious I struck a nerve. However, I think that I might have finally got my point across to you: if you aren't going to use the rules correctly and play nice, don't expect me to do the same. Oh, I hurt TheFreak's feelings by calling him Jeff Keith or Billy Bob!! LMAO!! Get over yourself & like Hayes said, you have some issues that seems to me need to be worked out. How you do that is your business, and I don't give a damn about it. But if part of your "therapy" is to make me look bad with incoherent drivel, then don't be surprised if I throw that **** back up in your face. No one likes being made to look like a fool, Freak, and I think they are many on this BBS who will agree with me that you have tried this "game" with them. You just happened to pick someone who is not going to put up with it. Period. BTW - I didn't ask you that question because I wanted to kiss your ass; I asked you because you seem to have something in common with me in being a music lover. If you don't want to answer me, then there's nothing that I can do about it. However, I hope you understand if I don't hold my breath until you do answer that question.
I find it hilarious that in the BBS Hangout, even a thread on music can disintegrate into a flame war. Chill out, kids. Save your energy for something useful.
I am a music lover. I just don't like to get into making personal attacks, which is what it always seems to come down to with you. You're up to your old tricks again in your last post, saying I need "therapy". Sorry, I'm taking the high road.
This thread is a perfect example of why naming "greatest" anything is ultimately counterproductive. Rather than people sharing musical knowledge, we instead have a flame war where people brawl over the ultimate artistic merit of x-artist. As a result, people either (a) split into camps so that any musical knowledge shared by the other side is dismissed or (b) ignore the thread and as a result, miss all of the musical knowledge contained within. Even I'm guilty of this - some the posters have made terrible submissions for greatest musical acts, and I'm very tempted to ignore any of these posters' other submissions. And all this polarization only hurts the bands/artists, who have several less fans because of human obstinance. Manny, I know you meant well, but this was exactly what I was afraid was going to happen. Rather than start a "greatest" thread, I wish you'd started a "Check out this (artist/band)" every so often. That way, it becomes a shared, rather than competitive experience (MY BANDS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS!). Not trying to bring you down Manny. Your enthusiasm for music is really cool and I always like seeing whose CDs you've recently bought.
