Haven and HeyCrisPee, your posts have brightened my day. I too, think most people expect too much from rookies. Pee, I think you're right on about the Rockets needing only defense and rebounding from Griffin. Not really knowing anything other than what I read, I'm much happier to have Griffin than Joe Johnson. I think the perimeter and ballhandling are in great shape with the current roster. It seems to me that in Griffin, we have a guy who may one day be as intimidating defensively in the middle as Hakeem. It sounds like he could possibly turn out to be bigger. I personally really like Shandon, but won't get into the great debate. However, unless the Rockets make trades, I see turmoil from re-signing him. I hope he is part of some sign and trade that puts him on a team that really needs him. ------------------
Robert Horry was an amazingly mature and smart player. He's probably one of the smartest basketball players I've seen. It might not be fair to Griffin to expect what Horry did. Also, Horry's expectations were clearly defined, his role clearly spelled out, and he was able to follow it perfectly--I don't think Rudy knows what to expect from Griffin.
Are you saying you would pay Shandon Fegan money as insurance that Rudy won't be able to clearly define Griffin's 1st yr role? Just because Griffin has more potential than Horry, does not mean Rudy won't spell out his 1st yr "expectations" and role "clearly". I am willing to bet Rudy will know rather rapidly *exactly* how he intends to use Griffin on defense. If nothing else, Griffin has 4 inches on Shandon just like Horry. I'm with Moe. Griffin's ability to meet longterm expectations of superstardom are what is driving the apprehension in this thread. Tempering our superstardom enthusiasm with reality that he is 19yrs old, is one thing; but don't lose sight of the fact that defensive drive and determination in an extremely athletic body is the easiest thing to translate to the NBA out of all the starter-worthy skills. All he needs is what Cato is missing: The willingness to work hard, learn, and improve. Who here is going to say that Griffin's defense wasn't a main reason Rudy's scouts had him #1? So, anyone want to tell me warning signs about his defense? Has he ever shown signs of having a Cato heart? If he merely brings strong will and determination, why can't this growing 6'10 athletic stud be a better SF defender that Shandon right out of the gate, just like Horry was?
I think HeyP...uh...crispee just became my favorite poster! Man you do a good job explaining what I wish everyone else beleived. And at 6'10" 222lbs its not like he is not physically ready like some of the high schoolers that are entering the league. The step Eddie is making is not as big as the step that KG, Kobe and Darius had to make entering the league. ------------------
Horry was also surrounded by veterans, and the best defensive center of all-time, and a defensive-minded team. What was Horry's D like on the Suns? If you're not on a defensive-minded team with a good defensive philosophy, it doesn't matter how good of a small forward defender you are (see: Pippen and Anderson). Griffin is going to be coming into a situation where (if starting) no other player in the lineup (unless Hakeem's here) knows how to play good defense yet, or is even committed to doing so. We've seen what happens the last few years when our small forward is ready to play D but no one else on the team picks up the slack--that player gets branded as "not as good as advertised", when the Team D is really what sucks.
Neither Pippen nor Anderson are good small forward defenders though. ------------------ Don't ask, I lost a bet.
I'm not sure that Anderson is a good SF defender (SG, certainly, but he was outsized at the 3), but Pippen certainly was. Just because he was a selfish prick doesn't take away from his defensive abilities. Besides, both of those players played terrific team defense, and anticipated passing lanes quite well. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
I disagree. Pippen may have been an excellent defender in Chicago, but by the time he got to Houston his quickness and athleticism had eroded so that he was not that great of a defender. He could still play passable defense at times because of his long arms and above-average instincts, but I would not say he was a good defender. ------------------ Don't ask, I lost a bet. [This message has been edited by Tolpatcsh Verkinder (edited July 09, 2001).]
TheFreak, Could you summarize that? Are you now saying that you would give Shandon his Fegan payday because we might not get Dream back to be the eraser Shandon needs? Griffin has the potential to be the eraser that Shandon and Horry needs, thus paying Shandon to stand in front of him is a luxury not worthy of a Fegan payday. Please answer my question this time.
I don't think you can go from being an excellent defender to "passable" in one year. I think a breakdown in Team D and a lack of an effective team defensive strategy is a more plausible explanation. Ever since the Barkley trade, the Rockets team defensive chemistry was shattered. We have examples of two players that came over from other teams who did not fare as well on the defensive end in Houston. Drexler and Elie were both not as good defensively after the trade as well (again, age is a possible explanation, but the examples mount up). When the team commitment to D is not there, individual defensive play is going to suffer.
Who said it was in one year? Pippens defense had been detoriating for the last several years in Chicago. Combine that with a bad back injury and his defense most certainly did suffer. By the time we got him, he was no longer a good defensive palyer. ------------------ Don't ask, I lost a bet.
Sorry, when I get bored with discussions, I leave because I have "better things to do with my time". But, I got you in my Palm Pilot now. I'll get to that as soon as I finish explaining Doc Rocket's last post to Achebe and researching those Bill Sharman statistics that Bob Finn* requested.
I only used one statistic (FG% 42)about EG in my entire post. People like to use the Darius Miles comparison for Eddie Griffin. That's fine and dandy. Darius Miles played a lot of 3 and 4 last year. He managed to thrive on the defensive end with his length and athleticism. But that's just it. Miles is a better athlete than Griffin. Griffin is the more skilled player, but Miles is the better athlete. He's got better lateral movement. Jumps higher. Runs Faster. I think the transition for Miles was easier than it will be for Griffin. All Miles had to do was to provide some energy on the court, fill the lanes, look for the lob, and play some defense. And he thrived in the role. Miles was always known as a versatile defender, being able to play on the perimeter and in the low post. Griffin on the other hand is known for his low post help D. In man to man situations, we are expecting him to keep up with guys like McGrady, HIll, and Carter on the perimeter. It's a different role than he is accustomed to. How is he going to handle that role? We are expecting a lot more out of Griffin compared to the Clippers streamlining the game for Miles. Trying to fill those other roles might lend to Griffin struggling his first year. He's going to be playing a new position, and there needs to be a time for adjustment. When Antwan Jamison came out of college as a two time 1st team All-American, he struggled trying to play the 3 his first season. The same fate might lie ahead for EG. ------------------
Da Man, Who's to say Griffin can't thrive in his clearly defined role on this team just like Miles did with the Clippers? You say that the adjustment period is easier for athletic freaks like Miles, but I attribute Miles' success to the fact that he had players in front of him and Gentry could use him in spots where he would have a clear advantage over his defender and could cause some chaos on the floor. Maggette,Swift, and Bender were all athletic freaks that struggled, and are struggling in Swift's and Bender's cases. I'll take my chances on the skilled player having success his first year over the athletic freak every time. Why do you assume that Griffin will play straight up man on the elite 3's in the league? IMO, teams will play a sagging match up zone defense, therefore, Griffin won't have to worry about being isolated on a side with a Tracy McGrady. Even if he does find himself in a position where he's expected to slow down an elite 3, unlike Shandon, he has the wingspan to where he can give the player space and still contest the shot. Jamison was asked to somewhat carry a team, unlike Griffin, was poorly coached, and I don't think he understood what his role was on that team. Also, taking into account he rarely ventured out of the paint in college, it's relatively easy to see why a hybrid 3/4 like him would struggle his first year. ------------------ Is it Rachmaninov or Rachmaninoff? [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited July 09, 2001).]
I know stats aren't going to tell much of a story, but bear in mind that Shandon only played 29 minutes last season, and his statistical contribution wasn't immense. Sure there is D which cannot be measured statistically, but how much of that did Shandon provide when outsized by the larger SF's? Now the point was made that Garnett didn't come into the league scoring 20ppg straight away, and thus we shouldn't expect Griffin to make such a significant contribution.But do we need the scoring from Griffin? If as suggested he is taking over Shandon's role at SF, why is it suddenly a problem when he won't be scoring more than the 8.7ppg that Shandon Anderson was scoring in his 29 minutes of involevent last season? Does anyone think that if Griffin plays those minutes (and make note that KG did in his rookie season straight out of HS) that he will average less than the 4.1 rpg that Shandon did? Isn't Griffin's rebounding something that excites all of us as Rockets fans? Saying that Griffin isn't ready to do what Shandon seemed physically unable to do seems to be a poor reason to resign Shandon! ------------------
Bah... I followed Griffin all year (best player in the Big East, and I go to BC). At the beginning of the year, and at the end, Griffin was terrific. Our team managed to contain him to 14 pts on 5/14 shooting in the tournament... by triple teaming him for half the game. There was a quick double team... and if he tried to drive, a third guy would block his progress to the basket. If you followed BC at all this year, you saw that we had absolutely wonderful help-defense - small team, but very quick. Got a lot of steals, and managed to strip the ball quite a bit from post players. Griffin only committed two turnovers in that game despite a press for most of the game, and the pressure of his team being routed by almost 30pts. He just got *no help*. Griffin was one of two players all year that BC ever triple teamed - the other was Troy Murphy. Griffin's ball skills are already better than Murphy's, imo... he just needs to work on his jump shot. At the very least, he's more athletic and a better shotblocker than Anderson... and Anderson doesn't have much range, so the Rockets won't lose much there. When teams aren't concentrating on him, Griffin's going to be magnificent.w ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
I've seen that "he was the guy we really wanted" stuff -- followed by disclosures that the team actually tried and failed to get somebody else and ended up with this guy instead -- way too often. (One example from this year: the Nets said on draft night that the whole trade hinged on getting Jefferson at 13 -- then within a couple of days it was disclosed that the guy they really wanted was Radmanovic.) It's in everyone's interest to pretend that the guy we got is the guy we most wanted, so everyone goes along. The Rockets leak it, and we happily believe it. And maybe it's true. But one thing's for sure: It ain't true just because the Rockets say it is.
Will, Do you think the Rocket's scouts saying Joe Johnson could START right now was true, in the Clutch unencrypting Doc Rocket thread? Do you think the Rocket's believe Griffin is better for us than Johnson? In my mind, those declarations offest any BBS college stat arguments claiming warning signs. I'm not saying anything is true or a sure thing. I am merely saying the "statistical warnings signs" are low on my priority list when compared to Rudy comments.
I think it's unfair to say that Bender has been struggling his first two seasons, simply because he's been on the court for a grand total of 729 minutes. As oppose to Swift who has played twice Bender's amount. Bender was drafted by a veteran, playoff team that went to the Finals his first season, and made the playoffs his second season. He's playing behind a lot of talented players at his possible positions. With his limited time on the court, I can see he has some out-of-this-world talents. The guy has an ugly release, but he can shoot it as well as any big man. From everything that I hear, he has been wonderful in practices. He just wasn't ready for the physical rigors of the NBA. He's an absolute untouchable commodity in any trade scenarios. This coming season, he will have a positive impact on the Pacers' fortunes. And just a quick blurb about the Pacers. The Rockets have done a great job of rebuilding quickly and easing that transition from a battle tested veteran corps into a young and up-coming team. But Pacers should also be commended. We are talking about a team the reached the Eastern Conference finals four times in the 90's and an NBA Finals appearance in 2000. Talk about heartbreakers. Four times they played in game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals, only to come up short each time. Ouch. Anyways, they've acquired a lot of good young talent on that team that will keep them in that playoff mix for years to come. I guess I should also expound upon the Darius Miles/Eddie Griffin comparison. It's a bit misleading when I said that Miles was the better athlete and Griffin was the more skilled player. They have different types of skills. Miles is an excellent ballhandler for his size, runs the court better, and is a good natural passer. Griffin obviously has the better jumpshot coupled with some nice, clearly defined low post moves. Just a better, more refined offensive game overall. Hence the more skilled player. Griffin is the better help defender, but Miles is the better, more versatile on the ball defender. But Miles isn't too shabby with his help defense either, with his weak side shotblocking and playing the passing lanes. I'm just saying with the smaller role that is expected of Miles to coincide with his amazing athleticism, perimeter and help defense, and guard-like skills made his transition to the NBA a smooth one. Griffin's ability to stretch the defense with his jumper is going to be an asset for his transition. But where he is going to make a true mark in the NBA is with his low post game. Just being a low post presence on both ends takes more time to develop on the NBA level than players who excel in other aspects, especially if you don't have the NBA body for it, which he doesn't. ------------------
