Yes. Really? I didn't realize we let anyone who wanted to - come in. Why is that? Legal immigrants pay taxes, right? And please don't just assert we're in a 'financial crisis due to immigration.' THAT sounds silly. Even using the MOST unreasonable anti-immigration figure of 20 or 30 billion a year, that is less than a percentage point of the budget. Sorry, that's not the case. If it were then 2,000 plus Mexicans wouldn't have died in the desert so far this year trying to get to the US. In the current system the criminals are the ones who GET in. We historically have had an open door policy so you're factually incorrect - unless you don't think we're a 'prominent country.' In fact those periods correspond exactly with our greatest periods of economic and cultural growth. Further, those immigrants have come from all corners of the globe. I didn't say 'no questions asked.' Actually my argument is that greater resources and focus can be brought to bare on keeping out undesirables if we spend LESS resources and focus on keeping out desirables.
This is the one nativist fear that baffles me the most. You can argue that perhaps an open border policy would be a strain financially or would lead to job displacement (though the facts will easily disprove both of these myths) but why would we lose our identity? Has this nation not been a beacon of hope to those all across the globe since her birth? Wouldn't that have already led to the outcome that you fear? On the contrary it has made America the greatest nation in the world as each culture adds something to the melting pot. Eventually each culture has "assimilated" for the greater good while still holding onto some of their own identity. So what is it you fear? There already are over 10 languages being spoken, but that doesn't mean they will surpass English as the standard means of communication in this country. To succeed in America, everyone eventually has to assimilate. So what is it that you're afraid of? The only possible outcome I can see is that Anglo-Saxons make up a less percentage of the general population. Is that what it is?
Yeah, you got me... I am afraid to be the minority. Wait, I'm white in southern Texas where we have a majority minority as it is. No, I'm not afraid of people coming through... they can come by the thousands if they want to, but they better do it legally. These people sneaking across the border and living here illegally are BREAKING THE LAW, it is easy as that. Either we need to stop them from crossing when and where they please or just open the floodgates and let them all in and just make North America into Latin America as a whole.
Easy there on the bold, that's not what I was addressing. If it's an "open border" policy, they wouldn't be breaking the law. So what do you mean by "losing your identity?"
Great post. I am going to repost this just because we've all heard the catchphrase part at the bottom. But PLEASE read the whole thing. If that doesn't make you stop and think for a minute about what this country is about then... Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, with conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame, "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
What amazes me is that these illegals are working for above minimum wage - at $8-12 dollars an hour according to some of the articles posted here. I think migrant workers are fine - so long as they are paid above minimum wage. We have to protect American workers who are already competiting against China and India. Yes, market forces are all about paying someone a $1 a day - but the end result is not good for the fiscal long-term health of this country. We have a current accounts deficit at record levels that's making a lot of people very nervous. I think if there was a program for migrant workers without granting citizenship that's one thing - but to have people come to the U.S. illegally is just not acceptable. I don't think fruit planations would go out of business - and if we paid an extra five cents per orange it's not going to reak havoc on agriculture.
The logic behind your argument is somewhat questionable. These immigrants are filling in a niche that no one else wants to do. People don't want to pick fruit and vegetables in farms. You're not protecting anyone's jobs. If anything these farms will just fold if they can't access the labor of illegal immigrants. Also what does the current account deficit have to do with this. That deals with the purchase of goods and services from other countries. If anything, your plan increases it because farms would just shift overseas since they can't access immigrant labor pools. I think most people here agree that some alternative guest worker system is not only necessary but probably inevitable. The thing I have a problem with is the idea that we need to build a wall. But from your post I guess you're not advocating that so we are in agreement. As for agriculture collapsing, its a real possibility. They're hanging by a thread off of subsidies which probably need and will go away. Since you're concerned so much with American jobs, any sort of wall system or any radical border protection program could shatter the industry that's already on the brink of collapsing.
This is laughable - farms would shift over seas? Right, they will move the farms to Austrailia - plenty of land to grow fruit! And what niche are they filling that no one else wants? I hear that a lot but I don't see any polls saying unemployed people here refuse to work picking fruit. How do you know that? This goes back to Fox's statement about Mexicans are willing to do work that Blacks aren't. Is that what you're saying? Again, show me the evidence that agriculture will collapse without illegal immigrants. I see articles with quotes - but where is the hard data? Where are you showing that the fruit industry can pay $12 and hour to an illegal immigrant but can't to anyone else. What we are really saying is this: We're letting industry get away with out providing benefits and such to our own workforce. You know, these illegals can't sue or anything, and that's great for agriculture profits. But I want to see where companies employee illegal immigrants are on the verge of bankruptcy.
This seems like a contradiction. Those comments make it sound as though that's exactly what you are 'afraid' of, for whatever reason. Immigration has been a mainstay of this country (both legally and illegally) since it's birth. Are we 'losing our identity' at the moment? Have we lost it? Exactly what 'identity' is that? Are we suffering currently, because of the 'illegals' (that word's getting thrown around like we aren't talking about people)? Of whatever problems you perceive this country to currently have, do we lay them at the feet of those folks? BTW: these are honest questions. I have not understood why this is such a major subject for folks, and as this thread has shown, the economic side of it is far from concrete. So I'm trying to understand the reasoning here.
Nice try there but a lot of our agriculture comes from overseas. Where does McDonalds get its beef? Oh wait most of it comes from Brazil. Is Florida really the only place we get our oranges? Nope that also comes from South America. How about Rice? Southeast Asia gives us almost all of our rice. Cocoa? Oh wait that comes from Brazil and the Ivory Coast. With free trade expanding, more and more countries are using their cheaper labor pools to provide cheaper agriculture. US agriculture is surviving off massive subsidies and illegal labor to counter this. Eliminating illegal immigration would jack up production and overhead costs and make foreign agriculture that much more attractive. A guest worker program is probably the solution and you yourself admitted that. Also the one crop which we actually totally indigenously produce, soy, is facing more and more competition from Asia and South America. We may lose our dominance in that even. That's not what I'm saying at all. Most people simply don't want to submit themselves to such horrendous labor conditions, regardless of skin color. Illegal Immigrants are in even worse situations because they can't apply for welfare or unemployment benefits like everyone else so they're forced to take these jobs. The conditions of these jobs and their seasonal nature makes it very unattractive to most. One report I read said that these jobs are 80% illegal immigrants. You're not really in a position to talk about having evidence, polls and data because you haven't really shown any either. Here's a speech by Senator Larry Craig on our reliance on foreign illegal labor and the harms of not instituting a guest worker system to correct this... http://www.aginfo.com/reportView.cfm?recordid=3573 I realize that the industry is getting away with a lot of bad stuff. That's why a guest worker effectively solves for these problems by providing a legal way for these people to work and access government benefits while paying taxes. As for the agriculture industry, the hurricanes and high oil prices have put it on the brink of collapse. Here's another link.. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/agri-s30.shtml Prohibiting illegal immigration without a guest worker program would just serve to make a bad situation worse. You can't argue that this would help agriculture in any way.
Are you a lobbyist? So you support illegal immigration because it's ok to submit foreigners to horrendous working conditions? What is this Grapes of Wrath? Wait - you're the one calling into question my case - yet you aren't providing any evidence to do that. So you're case is actually just as flimsy as mine. All you have is a speech from a politician? That's Evidence??? Right, Hurricanes and High Oil Prices are hurting agriculture, where's the prove that illegal immigrants are holding it together? Frankly, if the agriculture industry - with all it's technology, can't freakin compete with the rest of the world, guess what - it deserves to go out of business! We shouldn't have to depend on unjust labor practices to support this country.
Absolutely Hayes, we have disagreed in the past but history is quite clear--I'm glad someone paid attention in their undergrad years! Certainly, the "esteemed" Rep from Kentucky, *snicker*, knows far more about it as he so enlightened us by stating that: "Those who say the fence won't work, frankly, don't have experience with fences," said Rep. Geoff Davis, a Kentucky Republican who is supporting Mr. Hunter's bill. WOW....true words of wisdom, unfortunately for Mr. Davis, he is as dumb as a box of hammers.
