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Google: A new approach to China

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Ubiquitin, Jan 12, 2010.

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KingLeoric Member

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Flop.

#161 KingLeoric, Jan 22, 2010

Redneckinhtown Member

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You really have a tough tongue, don't you? Good job and fight on!

on

SamFisher said:

You guys should actually read the statement before you misinterpret it - it looks like they still intend to alter their China policy, as initially planned: "but . . . we will be making some changes there"
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#162 Redneckinhtown, Jan 22, 2010
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UPDATE 1-US groups say "alarmed" by China's business tactics
Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:39pm EST
Related News

WASHINGTON, Jan 26 (Reuters) - Business groups told U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and other top U.S. officials on Tuesday they were "increasingly alarmed" by China's moves to keep out foreign high-tech companies and urged a firm response by the United States, an influential newsletter reported.

"For several years, the Chinese government has been implementing indigenous innovation policies aimed at carving out markets for national champions and increasing the locally owned and developed intellectual property of innovative products," the business groups said, according to Washington-based newsletter, The Nelson Report.

"We are increasingly alarmed by the means China is using to achieve these goals," the groups said.

They urged the Obama administration to make the issue a top priority and work with the U.S. business community and like-minded foreign governments to develop a "strong, fully coordinated response to the Chinese government."

The letter is the latest salvo in what is shaping up as an quarrelsome year in U.S.-China trade relations.

Two weeks ago, the world's biggest search engine provider, Google Inc. (GOOG.O), threatened to shut its Chinese Google.cn portal and to pull out from China, citing problems of censorship and a hacking attack from within the country.

The Obama administration has backed Google's criticism, and Clinton urged China last week to drop Internet censorship and investigate the hacking, which some experts say could have been organized by Beijing.

The 19 U.S. business groups did not mention the Google case in their letter to Clinton, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, Attorney General Eric Holder, Commerce Secretary Gary Locke and Trade Representative Ron Kirk.

But they complained China has pursue aggressive "indigenous innovation" programs aimed at promoting high-tech national champions and excluding "a wide array of U.S. firms from a market that is vital to their future growth and ability to create jobs here at home."

Their most immediate concern were new rules issued by China in November to establish a national catalogue of products eligible for significant preferences when Chinese government agencies are making purchases.

The regulation requires any product listed in the catalogue to contain intellectual property developed and owned in China, making it "nearly impossible" for American companies to qualify unless they are prepared to establish Chinese brands and transfer their research and development of new products to China," the groups said.

"This directive targets some of our most innovative and competitive manufacturing and service industries, including computers, software, telecommunications and green technology. Once this system is in place, it is expected to be expanded to other industries," the groups said. (Reporting by Doug Palmer; editing by Anthony Boadle)
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http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2612907820100127?type=marketsNews

#163 saitou, Jan 27, 2010
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Interesting interview with a Chinese hacker. Putting aside whether or not there was govt support, would one of these hobbyist hackers have the means/be capable enough to hack into Google?

CHANGSHA, China — With a few quick keystrokes, a computer hacker who goes by the code name Majia calls up a screen displaying his latest victims.

“Here’s a list of the people who’ve been infected with my Trojan horse,” he says, working from a dingy apartment on the outskirts of this city in central China. “They don’t even know what’s happened.”

As he explains it, an online “trapdoor” he created just over a week ago has already lured 2,000 people from China and overseas — people who clicked on something they should not have, inadvertently spreading a virus that allows him to take control of their computers and steal bank account passwords.

Majia, a soft-spoken college graduate in his early 20s, is a cyberthief.

He operates secretly and illegally, as part of a community of hackers who exploit flaws in computer software to break into Web sites, steal valuable data and sell it for a profit.

Internet security experts say China has legions of hackers just like Majia, and that they are behind an escalating number of global attacks to steal credit card numbers, commit corporate espionage and even wage online warfare on other nations, which in some cases have been traced back to China.

Three weeks ago, Google blamed hackers that it connected to China for a series of sophisticated attacks that led to the theft of the company’s valuable source code. Google also said hackers had infiltrated the private Gmail accounts of human rights activists, suggesting the effort might have been more than just mischief.

In addition to independent criminals like Majia, computer security specialists say there are so-called patriotic hackers who focus their attacks on political targets. Then there are the intelligence-oriented hackers inside the People’s Liberation Army, as well as more shadowy groups that are believed to work with the state government.

Indeed, in China — as in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia — computer hacking has become something of a national sport, and a lucrative one. There are hacker conferences, hacker training academies and magazines with names like Hacker X Files and Hacker Defense, which offer tips on how to break into computers or build a Trojan horse, step by step.

For less than $6, one can even purchase the “Hacker’s Penetration Manual.” (Books on hacking are also sold, to a lesser extent, in the United States and elsewhere.)

And with 380 million Web users in China and a sizzling online gaming market, analysts say it is no wonder Chinese youths are so skilled at hacking. Many Chinese hackers interviewed over the last few weeks describe a loosely defined community of computer devotees working independently, but also selling services to corporations and even the military. Because it is difficult to trace hackers, exactly who is behind any specific attack and how and where they operate remains to a large extent a mystery, technology experts say.

And that is just the way Majia, the young Chinese hacker, wants it. On condition that he not be identified by his real name, Majia agreed two weeks ago to allow a reporter to visit his modest home in a poor town outside Changsha, and watch him work.

Slim and smartly dressed in black, Majia seemed eager to tell his story; like many hackers, he wants recognition for his hacking skills even as he prizes anonymity to avoid detection. The New York Times found him through another well-known hacker who belongs to a hacker group and vouched that Majia was skilled at what he did.

While Majia’s claims, of course, cannot be verified, he is happy to demonstrate his hacking skills. He met a journalist at a cafe one night just over a week ago, and then invited him to his home, where he showed how he hacked into the Web site of a Chinese company. Once the Web site popped up on his screen, he created additional pages and typed the word “hacked” onto one of them.

Majia says he fell in love with hacking in college, after friends showed him how to break into computer systems during his freshman year.

After earning a degree in engineering, he took a job with a government agency, largely to please his parents. But every night after work, he turns to his passion: hacking.

He is consumed by the challenges it presents. He reads hacker magazines, swaps information with a small circle of hackers and writes malicious code. He uses Trojan horses to sneak into people’s computers and infect them, so he can take control.

“Most hackers are lazy,” he says, seated in front of a computer in his spare bedroom, which overlooks a dilapidated apartment complex. “Only a few of us can actually write code. That’s the hard part.”

Computer hacking is illegal in China. Last year, Beijing revised and stiffened a law that makes hacking a crime, with punishments of up to seven years in prison. Majia seems to disregard the law, largely because it is not strictly enforced. But he does take care to cover his tracks.

Partly, he admits, the lure is money. Many hackers make a lot of money, he says, and he seems to be plotting his own path. Exactly how much he has earned, he won’t say. But he does admit to selling malicious code to others; and boasts of being able to tap into people’s bank accounts by remotely operating their computers.

Financial incentives motivate many young Chinese hackers like Majia, experts say. Scott J. Henderson, author of “The Dark Visitor: Inside the World of Chinese Hackers,” said he had spent years tracking Chinese hackers, sometimes with financial help from the United States government. One Chinese hacker who broke into a United States government site later lectured on hacking at a leading university, Mr. Henderson said, and worked for China’s security ministry. But recently, many have been seeking to profit from stealing data from big corporations, he said, or teaching others how to hijack computers.

“They make a lot of money selling viruses and Trojan horses to infect other people’s computers,” Mr. Henderson said in a telephone interview. “They also break into online gaming accounts, and sell the virtual characters. It’s big money.”

Majia lives with his parents, and his bedroom has little more than a desktop computer, a high-speed Internet connection and a large closet. The walls are bare.

Most of his socializing occurs online, where he works from about 6:30 p.m. to 12:30 a.m., starting every evening by perusing computer Web sites like cnBeta.com.

Asked why he doesn’t work for a major Chinese technology company, he sneers at the suggestion, saying that it would restrain his freedom.

He even claims to know details of the Google attack. “That Trojan horse on Google was created by a foreign hacker,” he says, indicating that the virus was then altered in China. “A few weeks before Google was hijacked, there was a similar virus. If you opened a particular page on Google, you were infected.”

Oddly, Majia said his parents did not know that he was hacking at night. But at one point, he explained the intricacies of computer hacking and stealing data while his mother stood nearby, listening silently, while offering a guest oranges and candy.

Majia and his fellow hackers keep secret their knowledge of certain so-called zero-day vulnerabilities — software flaws — for future use, he says.

“Microsoft and Adobe have a lot of zero days,” he said, while scanning Web sites at home. “But we don’t publish them. We want to save them so that some day we can use them.”

When asked whether hackers work for the government, or the military, he says “yes.”

Does he? No comment, he says.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/business/global/02hacker.html?pagewanted=1&ref=global-home

#164 saitou, Feb 6, 2010
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Looks like they made good on their threat:

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/

#165 SamFisher, Mar 22, 2010
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Google is becoming a monster. Now China is definitely safer.

#166 redao, Mar 23, 2010
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I support what google is doing.

To show my support, I just sold all my shares of BIDU today. I had BIDU for about 15 months now and it had been great for me.

But the lesson of google is that you can be principled and still make a ton of money.

#167 tie22fighter, Mar 23, 2010

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So Google finally defies CCP.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/world/asia/24china.html?ref=world

It's matter of time that the redirected traffic to Google HK will be cut off completely by Beijing.

#168 YallMean, Mar 23, 2010
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Google's not the only one, now. GoDaddy isn't registering .cn domains any more because of new restrictions from the Chinese government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/24/AR2010032401543.html

Choice quotes:

In December, China began to enforce a new policy that required any registrant of a new .cn domain name to provide a color, head-and-shoulders photograph and other business identification, including a Chinese business registration number and physical, signed registration forms. That data was to be forwarded to the China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC), a quasi-governmental agency. Most domain name registries require only a name, address, telephone number and e-mail address.

...

Jones also said GoDaddy customers with Chinese domain names have recently been attacked more frequently than in the past. The sites targeted tend to be those "deemed not appropriate" by Beijing -- sites that contain content about the Tiananmen Square uprising or human rights, for instance.

"When our sites get shut down in China, we are never told why . . . and it's impossible to know why," Jones said.

...

Jones said GoDaddy's decision to stop registering new domains was unrelated to Google's recent decision.

"With all due respect, this has nothing to do with Google," she said. She added that the company had been deliberating what it would do about its business in China before Google's announcement.

"We decided we didn't want to be agents of China," she said.
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#169 Depressio, Mar 25, 2010
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IMO the problem is that Google simply doesn't have that big of a market influence on China as is does on the rest of the world. Baidu is still used extensively (although god knows why, it's crap) and it's very selective. For instance, I just typed 'tiananmen' into baidu.com, and there was one link to the incident. Search it within 'news' section of baidu.com, and, well, nothing whatsoever.

I applaud Google's action, I really do. But I just hope that Google could've dug in a bit deeper, made the Chinese government really feel the pain of losing the respect of a multinational company, now that really would've made a difference. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have that effect.

#170 brantonli24, Mar 25, 2010
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brantonli24 said:

IMO the problem is that Google simply doesn't have that big of a market influence on China as is does on the rest of the world. Baidu is still used extensively (although god knows why, it's crap) and it's very selective. For instance, I just typed 'tiananmen' into baidu.com, and there was one link to the incident. Search it within 'news' section of baidu.com, and, well, nothing whatsoever.
.
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~30% market share is not as dominant as they were in the US - but is still a pretty decent sized audience.

#171 SamFisher, Mar 25, 2010
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brantonli24 said:

I applaud Google's action, I really do. But I just hope that Google could've dug in a bit deeper, made the Chinese government really feel the pain of losing the respect of a multinational company, now that really would've made a difference. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have that effect.
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What's interesting is that China still has one of the most favorable investment environment to MNEs in the world. However, when comes to control of information, it seems CCP just does not want to relent.
I don't know how to change it. They cut facebook and Chinese are happy with QQ. They now cut Google and Chinese are happy with Baidu. The change probably won't come from MNEs, who are all almost business driven. The Chinese people have to speak, but OTOH that's precisely why CCP wants to control the information. So maybe all China can hope for is a wise guy somehow gets the control of the power and change it overnight. That has been the story in the past 50 years for the former communist blocs.

#172 YallMean, Mar 25, 2010
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There are lots of winners in this game, depends on their objectives. But to me, the only pure losers are those Chinese who would like to use Google for information within China.

Google can consider themselves a winner - they didn't yield to the evil commies, and give up business for freedom and democracy. Although google.cn was a different animal than google.com to start with, thanks to/blames Li for the original approach to do whatever Chinese government asks them to, in exchange for market share. On the end, it turns out although they give up a lot, they couldn't match what Baidu is willing to do, and they are losing market share to Baidu. They cut the loss and move on by painting themselves as the good guy only interested in free flow of information, although they follow US rules of content restrictions, and just lost a case about p*rn stuff in Italy. They lost business in China, but might gain some more in the "free world".

Chinese government can consider themselves a winner - they didn't yield to evil capitalist hypocrites, and defended their honor/laws/authority. To Chinese government, people in lots of countries are not friendly to them, no matter what. Whatever story broke up involving them, people are always willing to believe the opposite site. So they don't really care or try any more. To them, only things important to them are: 1. They have a firm grip of the power 2. Majority of Chinese people in China support them 3. Foreign government/business want to do business with them. Google being gone is beneficial to them, so they will consider themselves a winner, especially when lots of Chinese are supporting the government says No to a loud and demanding foreign business.

Baidu can consider themselves a winner - gained market share to an almost monopoly position, increased share prices. I used to own both stocks. When GOOG was near 700, and BIDU was around 250, I believe that GOOG would reach 1000 earlier than BIDU does 400. But i was wrong, BIDU is actually more expensive than GOOG now.

US government can consider themselves a winner - they supported US business or their "values". They gave the evil commie government an earful and lots of pressure. It made them look well in front of American people. It doesn't hurt that Google happens to have some close ties to this administration. Now some congress men/women are making Microsoft the bad guy, and of course it's just coincidental that Google and Microsoft are competitors in the search engine business.

For people in China who are used to use Google for information - they have to use Baidu or Bing now. My father use more google than he does baidu, guess it's going to be inconvenient for him. But he'll overcome and he's retired anyways. He and other users never paid anyways. I will still use google as my default search engine, baidu for some specific Chinese stuff.

It seems that everybody's life just goes on, and the aftermath is even better than before, for most parties involved, except for those Chinese who want some extra information. But nobody can do anything to change that.

#173 real_egal, Mar 25, 2010

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I think Google dare not go deeper although I do hope they do. My prediction is that Google in a few years (less than 5, maybe 3) will go back to China again. No one will be against money, google is no exception. Google's growth elsewhere in the world will reach a limit at some point. To keep growing, it has to dive into Chinese market with 1.3 billion people. Whatever principles the CEO has right now will be abandoned once Wall Street start to pressure you to mark profit.

brantonli24 said:

IMO the problem is that Google simply doesn't have that big of a market influence on China as is does on the rest of the world. Baidu is still used extensively (although god knows why, it's crap) and it's very selective. For instance, I just typed 'tiananmen' into baidu.com, and there was one link to the incident. Search it within 'news' section of baidu.com, and, well, nothing whatsoever.

I applaud Google's action, I really do. But I just hope that Google could've dug in a bit deeper, made the Chinese government really feel the pain of losing the respect of a multinational company, now that really would've made a difference. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have that effect.
Click to expand...

#174 lw449876, Mar 25, 2010
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More shenanigans.

BEIJING — In what appears to be a coordinated assault, the e-mail accounts of more than a dozen rights activists, academics and journalists who cover China have been compromised by unknown intruders. A Chinese human rights organization also said that hackers disabled its Web site for a fifth straight day.

The infiltrations, which involved Yahoo e-mail accounts, appeared to be aimed at people who write about China and Taiwan, rendering their accounts inaccessible, according to those who were affected. In the case of this reporter, hackers altered e-mail settings so that all correspondence was surreptitiously forwarded to another e-mail address.

The attacks, most of which began last Thursday, occurred the same week that Google angered the Chinese government by routing Internet search engine requests out of the mainland to a site in Hong Kong. Google said the move was prompted by its objections to censorship rules and by a spate of attacks on Google e-mail users that the company suggested had originated in China.
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More at the link.

#175 rhadamanthus, Mar 31, 2010
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rhadamanthus said:

More shenanigans.

More at the link.
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I doubt it is a government effort to hack into Yahoo accounts. It is possible that they had some indirect involvement in the Google accounts but I seriously doubt that they would make a second high-profile attempt so quickly. Criticize the CCP all you want but they aren't that stupid and sloppy.

#176 Cokebabies, Mar 31, 2010
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More attacks, this time on Vietnamese opponents of a Chinese run bauxite mine:

http://www.siliconvalley.com/latest-headlines/ci_14792343?nclick_check=1

#177 SamFisher, Mar 31, 2010
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I think it's time to own up. The latest theory is that the Google hack was traced to someone in two colleges in China. I suppose we'll never truly know but let's use that working theory right now.

So Sammy et al, do you now still claim the Chinese government was directly involved or do you now wish to change your story to a proxy acting on the behalf of the Chinese government (or something to that effect)?

#178 MFW, Mar 31, 2010

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MFW said:

I think it's time to own up. The latest theory is that the Google hack was traced to someone in two colleges in China. I suppose we'll never truly know but let's use that working theory right now.

So Sammy et al, do you now still claim the Chinese government was directly involved or do you now wish to change your story to a proxy acting on the behalf of the Chinese government (or something to that effect)?
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Umm, I don't believe I took a position either way, but if you're asking me to now, I'm sure there's a combination of the following, direct state action, indirect state action through third parties, and undirected, but, of course, tolerated, "hacktivism" going on.

#179 SamFisher, Mar 31, 2010
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I can't believe you guys haven't been able to definitively prove a Communist regime's industrial espionage. You guys are slipping. Why the hell would an authoritarian regime want to out civil rights operatives and steal corporate secrets anyway? I suggest you all double or triple your intelligence budgets for this year. Surely at that point you'll be able to identify these Chinese spies and finally nail them to the wall.

#180 CometsWin, Mar 31, 2010

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