1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Good News: Leftists Win in El Salvador

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    He could have easily listed any Scandinavian leader, the majority of Canadian prime ministers, the majority of French presidents etc. etc.

    It's amazing how much more progressive the world is when you compare it to America. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing, but most of the developed world is left to the center compared to America.
     
  2. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,756
    Likes Received:
    40
    Just as strong government is good, essential even, for capitalism. Without a strong government there can be no capitalism.

    The important questions these days are about which parts of our economy and society are best managed by the private sector, and which are best managed by various governments. When the terms socialist and capitalist start getting thrown around they're generally just being used as empty rhetoric.
     
  3. insane man

    insane man Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    5
    i completely agree, and have no problem saying that it necessarily is a good thing that the majority of the developed world is progressive. unfortunately we lag tremendously.

    for the bottom 80% living outside of the united states would probably give those individuals a better quality of life. better healthcare, better various social safety nets, a longer life, etc. though upward mobility is probably a bit more limited at least for the upper middle class.
     
  4. Bogey

    Bogey Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,250
    Likes Received:
    118
    Damn Canadians think they know everything. :p

    Nice statement.
     
    #24 Bogey, Mar 16, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  5. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,756
    Likes Received:
    40
    He was the leader of a socialist party, The Labour Party, which is a member of an international socialist organization.
    http://www.socialistinternational.org/about.cfm

    What's your definition of a leftist?
     
  6. Bogey

    Bogey Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,250
    Likes Received:
    118

    You really think the bottome 80% would be better off? What yearly salary would put you in the top 20%?
     
  7. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,756
    Likes Received:
    40
    What do you mean think? ;) No, I think we just have some different experiences and perspectives, which is one of the reasons I find coming to this board so interesting. I learn a lot here too. :)
     
  8. Bogey

    Bogey Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,250
    Likes Received:
    118
    I try to, but sometimes it's hard to get a decent conversation or good information when the people are just throwing insults back and forth.

    I didn't even see my spelling error until I was quoted. Nice that I can't edit that. :D
     
  9. insane man

    insane man Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    5
    i think household income of around a 100k or more. census bureau
     
  10. surrender

    surrender Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,340
    Likes Received:
    32
    But at the same time, they were ruled by a party which has a history of torturing and murdering dissidents.
     
  11. weslinder

    weslinder Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    Blair is Labour. I think globally you would consider him neo-conservative, but I've always held that neo-conservatives are left of center (yes, even Bush). Blair was a moderate domestically, but if you're using his foreign policy to not call him a leftist, where does that put Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, Johnson, Stalin, and virtually every Soviet leader? Left-wing warmongers have outnumbered right-wing warmongers by a long shot in modern history, by any definition.
     
  12. Refman

    Refman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    312
    Yeah...kind of like when the Bolshevics overthrew the czar.

    When will people learn? When a group overthrows a government that they feel has beaten them down, they in turn beat down the public....because now they can.
     
  13. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,756
    Likes Received:
    40
    I can't imagine that anyone would seriously call him a neo-conservative. There were some editorials that called him that after he jumped in bed with Bush for the Iraq war, but every other way he is a socialist like every other democratic socialist in the world today. He raised taxes and increased spending on health and education, for example.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premiership_of_Tony_Blair
     
  14. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,205
    Likes Received:
    15,379

    From the very link you provided:

    [rquoter]
    Blair is both credited with and criticized for moving the Labour Party towards the centre of British politics, using the term "New Labour" to distinguish his pro-market policies from the more collectivist policies which the party had espoused in the past.

    [/rquoter]

    The best analog is Clinton, who the hard core right-wingers undoubtedly consider a socialist-commie pinko, but who was clearly a centrist who pissed off the most left-leaning of his backers.
     
  15. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,756
    Likes Received:
    40
    That almost sounds like a justification for not overthrowing oppressive regimes. I hope that's not what you were trying to say.

    Regarding the Bolsheviks, they overthrew the Czar during a revolution. This was a democratic election. I think the two events are quite different in any event.
     
  16. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,756
    Likes Received:
    40
    I think that's a trend that exists in many, perhaps most, democratic socialist parties today. Blair may have been one of the first, I suppose, but there are a number of provincial NDP governments in Canada that had very similar ideas at about the same time. Some have even cut taxes. I think the underlying point to this line of discussion is that the term "leftist" has no real meaning anymore, imo. Are socialists leftists? If not then who is? What exactly is a leftist, or is that just an empty term now that's only used as some kind of archaic scare tactic?
     
  17. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,205
    Likes Received:
    15,379
    Not really. Look at all the South American countries which seem to be so fond of nationalization. That generally couldn't be described as a 'pro-market' policy even by the most broad of definitions. If you think nationalization is generally a positive step, you might be a leftist, as opposed to a liberal.

    Maybe it just means that there aren't any leftists in the USA/Canada or Western Europe any more. It is pretty well undeniable that US politics has swung way to the right in the past 30 years, so that guys who are liberal now would have been moderate conservatives in the 1970's.

    But there are still plenty of old style guys out there. Just because the full range of the political spectrum in the USA is not expressed, doesn't mean that that full range is not real anymore.
     
  18. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    8,307
    Likes Received:
    4,653

    Kind of like what happened during the American Revolution? When will people learn?
     
  19. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    2,456
    Likes Received:
    11

    "The old boss...is the same as the new boss... Won't get fooled again"

    - The Who
     
  20. tomato

    tomato Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    133
    FRAN?
     

Share This Page