Gibson Father: Holocaust Mostly 'Fiction'

Originally posted by twhy77
Cohen a few things:

Language and Anti-Semitism...
.... We all killed Jesus, we are all the chosen people of God, and we are all in need of his salvific message for the world.

Great.

That doesn't address the movie and how Mel handled it, does it?


What do you mean neither do theologians or historians? The Bible is, after all, a collection of several kinds of writing...history, theology, poetry, apocalyptic material, etc. If we try to read these books in the same wooden way in which we approach a modern newspaper, we're going to be awfully confused.

However, it is clear that the Gospels are depicting something very real, not just telling an allegory.

So you, like Max, believe it is intended to be interpreted word-for-word?


Just because the Catholic faith disagrees with some tenents of Judaism does not mean that it is being anti-semitic. The argument could also be made that the church is not anti-semitic, but that some of its followers have been. You'd be hard pressed to find a dogma that said we hate Jews, ever.

We? Good news, since my mother and half of my familyare Roman Catholic.

I never said that Catholicism's history of anti-Semiticism is derived from the differences in beliefs. But you cannot deny the Catholic Church's anti-Semitic history.

 

Late last week David Elcott, the U.S. director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, reported that he had been present at a screening when someone asked Gibson, "Who opposes Jesus?" Gibson's Manichaean reply: "They are either satanic or the dupes of Satan."

 

Is it too late to rename Jeff's band?

 

i think we're not even having the same discussion anymore.

when asked about whether or not God created the world in 6 days i say, "he certainly could have if he wanted...but i think 6 days is largely just the product of a man divinely inspired to write of the creation with zero experience in physics, biology or any other science. the Bible isn't a science book.

but the new testament is a bit different in that regard...these are accounts of eyewitnesses...these are letters that we've literally dug up that were written by early christians. now ultimately the question of whether or not this man died on a cross and was resurrected is left to faith, in great portion. and believing that it has any effect on my life today is certainly a measure of faith. but the stories are written both in the Bible and in the books that "didn't make the cut" that tell the story of Christ's death and resurrection. you can choose to believe those books are or are not accurate..and you'll hear educated commentary from both directions, frankly.

 

GO SEE THE MOVIE AND FIND OUT!!!

twhy can't answer you question, because he hasn't seen the movie. i can't answer it, either. i can guaran-damn-tee you though that if the movie stays true to the Gospel that Caiphas and the temple leaders will come off looking like jackasses. they certainly do in the Bible. but that's not to say that anyone else other than Jesus comes off looking real good, either.

 

I bet the militant fundamentalist Muslims are gonna love the ending.

 

Back in the early '80's, my wife and I went to visit the Netherlands and her extensive family relations there. One was a middle aged gentleman who was about 20 when the Nazi's invaded his country. Being determined not to live under repression, he tried to make his way to Switzerland, was caught at the border, returned to Holland and placed in a concentration camp where he remained until liberation. He was not Jewish.

While we visited, he asked if we'd like to see some history of WWII in the country a few miles from the Medieval town where he lived. We drove out to a pleasant forest, entering a well kept gate. We strode deep into the trees... birds were singing... it was deserted and lovely.

He turned off the path we were on and we started seeing embankments covered with grass and flowers. Mounds were here and there amongst the young trees. Then we came upon a single guard tower. He pointed at it and told us that this was the concentration camp he had been interned at. That everyone in the area knew it was there and they kept the area free from development and the single tower maintained as a reminder.

Then, he walked a little further and showed us a particular embankment. His eyes moistened, he choked up a little, and he said, "This is where they shot the Dutch Jews in the camp. A few every day the whole time I was here. Sometimes, I was ordered to take them away for burial. The Nazi's were monsters and I can never forget it. When I see our young people laughing and being friends with the Germans who come to visit today in my country, intellectually, I know these young people had nothing to do with this. And I know I shouldn't be angry, but I am."

There was no one else around. Then, we returned to his car and drove back to his small, walled city. We've never forgotten it.

The Holocaust was more than huge furnaces and camps in Poland. It happened all over Europe. Yes, he said that sometimes other Dutch resistance people were shot there as well, but that it was relatively uncommon.

Reading this just reminded me of that day. Sorry for the long story.

 

Originally posted by MadMax
GO SEE THE MOVIE AND FIND OUT!!!

twhy can't answer you question, because he hasn't seen the movie. i can't answer it, either.

I haven't seen it either.

I'm drawing my criticisms directly from those who have seen it.

I feel like others are preparing their retorts from their religious beliefs, not WRT the movie itself.

Now, if you're a fundamentalist, then most of the discussion is over. (And I'm worried for you and the ramifications of interpreting the Bible so literaly. )

They are still instances of 'enhancement' (i.e., not in the Gospels) that portray the Jews negatively ( and I'll find the references, if you care). As one who saw the movie put it, Mel took every opportunity to paint the Jews in a negative light. That was consistent with the views of others' who saw it. It was not necessary to do so.

 

My God.

This is Mel Gibson. One of the most respected actors and an amazing one at that.

He stated himself that this movie may be the end of his career.

You open your mouth in any way against the Jews and you have the ADL and half the world breathing down your throat.

Now talk about him being a religious extremist, nazi, antisemite and other garbage. This is the story of the Jesus' last hours. A man that Christians and Muslims, which make up over 75% of this planet, believe was the voice of God.

There has been questions whether it was the Romans or the Jews for centuries. If he presents it in a commonly depicted way, does that mean he's anti-semitic?

For some reason if you say anything about the the Holocaust, about how 10 million russians died in WWII, about Israel or anything your just being anti-semitic.

Who cares what the hell he thinks about the Holocaust. Who cares what his father thinks about it. What happened to freedom of religon and expression? When Salman Rushdie wrote a book in which he openly stated he made up stories and tarnished the reputation of Muhammad, the whole world stood up for him. The 50 year old not very attractive, dirty looking Mr. Rushdie is now living in England engaged to his fourth wife, a 20-something year old ex-model because he is like a star being invited to literary events and being interviewed etc.

I guess the exact opposite happens if you insult a Jew versus a muslim.

 

i think we're done

 

At least no one is putting a fatwa on Mel Gibson's head.

 

Jesus was Jewish - as were all his relatives and the disciples. I'm not sure how you get anti-Jewish from the Bible or this movie.

Look at the movie from the point that He loved us so much that he knowing accepted this for us. My mind just can't grasp it all.

 

Obviously your father does not share your beliefs or you wouldn't be around? I don't think you can make the assumption about what he believes because he doesn't want to verbally spar with his father in public.



And that Fatwa on Salman Rushdie's head (which was idiotic to do) pushed his celebrity even more. He gets invited to literary parties and is interviewed all over. He is seen as one who stood up to tyranny and as a hero when all he did was write a book of stories insulting the head of 2nd largest religion in the world. These same people who are using their spin machine to depict Mel Gibson in a bad way propped up Rushdie because it made Islam look foolish.



The

 

I doubt I'll see this movie. I don't like it when music videos start to replace the images and emotions and thoughts and memories I have for a great song. I don't like the way movies do it for a special book. I'm sure not going to like it when it's a question of faith.

Images can be insidious. Regardless of the theological arguments, the inspiration for the script, the cinematography, etc. I prefer my own version of the Passion Play to that of Mel Gibson's and I don't particularly want the two to meet.

(I also happen to think Hollywood is playing us all big time in order to generate more revenue.)

 

[pulling out proverbial fake finger gun before blowing proverbial fake finger gun bullet through brain]

[/blowing brains out][composing self]

So, ummm, yes I believe the account of the Passion in the gospels is a more history laden piece of the gospels. I don't really see the metaphorical need of having so much detail about the last hours of Chirst's life. Is it 100% accurate? Who knows. Is it anti-semitic? No.

Does it address the movie? Not directly, but I could see how him saying the Jews killed Jesus would spark anger towards him, whether they were justified in doing so or not. But I don't think that means he's trying to be anti-semitic or anything like it.

Next question,

There has never been a doctrine in the Church that was intentionally anti-semitic. The selling of indulgences was wrong. But it was not church theology. The pediphillia problem is a wrong. It is not part of Church theolgy. Anti-semitism is wrong, but is not part of church theology. To say those who were affiliated with the church commited these wrongs would be well, wrong.

And I wasn't trying to exclude your family when I said, we. Generally, means you know everyone, I meant to inflect it as being inclusive rather than exclusive. Sorry if it sounded the wrong way.

 

Oh, the irony.

 

In other news I just picked up my three tickets for Ash Wednesday.

 

I'm keeping my streak of not going to the movies on Ash Wednesday alive. Besides, I'd hate to be one of many people with ash crosses on their forheads while watching a movie, just a strange picture in my mind's eye.