"Getting it", Grades and Splitting Batman & Robin Up

Never witnessed it personally, but I know some who have. Can't honestly say what the worst was because I just wasn't around for it, but I do know that he went off on a few guys during the championship years and Drexler's wild three's used to piss him off pretty badly from what I remember.

 

I never said that.

I said that *if* he never "gets it," moving him to the 2 isn't going to make our problems go away like people assume here. I explained my take on this better in Doc Rockets thread, so won't repeat myself.

 

just shut the ""!"%"% up

 

Does Iverson guarding MacCrady, Bryant and Finely sends chills down your spine? It does because Iverson went to the Finals that way. His pg Eric Snow isn't a big point guard either. Not to mention that Francis is only 1 inch shorter than Mobley and 3 inches taller than Iverson, and Francis and Cat were said to be looked like at the same height on the court.

 

nice post oeilpere. I didn't mean to say trade Batman and keep Robin. But if you trade Robin, what do you get...Spritel or Chim Chim? If a major trade is the only answer, trade the person most responsible for the major problem. The Mach 5 is being driven my Speed Racer, not Spritel. This team is Batman's team. Only Batman will get you another super hero. Or do you think what we really need is another commissioner who stops calling Batman and uses his Yao-phone more often--you know, it is a Red phone, afterall. If Batman's team is going nowhere because of him, switching sidekicks is likely a weak patch. I mean, getting Rodman didn't make David Robinson less of a wimp, did it. Reviving Shawn Bradley by playing gimmick zones didn't stop the league from re-exposing Dallas's non-existent interior defense (Portland humiliated them at home Sunday), and all the Najera hustle players isn't going to hide Nitwitz achilles heel.

Moving Steve to the 2 goes against his wishing. If you want to force him to do that, don't think he's just going to change his ways of not dominating the playmaking and turning the ball over at a much higher clip now that you allow the defense to put 6'6-6'8 superstars on him.

If the problem is Steve and Cat, it really is just a Steve problem. Rudy can deal with the Cat. If he can deal with Maxwell, he can deal with the Cat. If Steve is untrainable, dammit, get something for him...and toss in the scaredy cat Griffin with him. Get bigger!! We play zones in this league. Shooters are easy to find; veteran True PGs often es fall from the sky; but big guys that can score against zones and play D are hard to find.

<blockquote><hr>then an immediate triangle set with Yao or Griffin holding low then crossing iinside. I can?t see Francis doing that, or being a part of that anymore. Sorry. <hr></blockquote>Not to be argumentative, just curious. Griffin is showing me nothing in terms of understanding complicated sets, much less executing them. Do you really see him doing that before seeing Francis learn how to exploit Yao better? I don't. I'm losing faith in Griffin much faster than I'm losing faith in Francis.

 

There sure are some good reads in here tonight.

 

Definately some good reads..I think the reason is that people are finally fed up with the "batman and robin" crap that has managed to choke the life out of what should be a very talented offensive club. As far as my changes are concerned:
1) Rudy T's job SHOULD hinge on what happens THIS season. I think he has lost control of his players and if he cannot reign in his young headstrong guards I think the rockets need to find someone who will. We need someone to get this team over the hump (i.e. John Gruden type) who will get after the players and demand that they play as a team, not as two guards who want to be on SC.
2) Tradewise, I think alot of the problems that the rockets are experiencing are leadership related, but if you are hell bent on keeping Rudy T then:
You must break up Steve and Cat because together, they have proven to be too much for Rudy T to handle. You then make an attempt to sign a pass-first guard (i.e Jamaal Tinsley type) to come in and run the point. You try to eliminate some of the dead weight on this club by trading them if at ALL possible (Norris, Morris, Collier, etc.). Basically, TRADE ALL PLAYERS WHO DON'T FIT THE SYSTEM....PERIOD. Its time to be ruthless because I think players like Cat obviously feel that they can't be traded because they have formed emotional bonds with key players on the team. I think its time they be reminded that basketball is a buisiness and people will not come to see a sub-standard product, regardless of whether your best friend is Stevie Franchise or Bokie Nachbar.

Overall I'd like to see some MAJOR changes in the team going into the new arena next year. Right now the rockets are playing ISO basketball even when they win. Its ugly and disfunctional and either the coach needs to do his damn job and stop being everyone's friend...or you need to ship some of the "little dribblers" that refuse to pass the ball. Bottom-line, if the Rockets don't shape up, Mobley or Tomjanovich ship out.

 

After these few games I realize more and more that Mobley is the problem. Even after last night's win, I couldn't help but notice how many bricks he threw up. And 8 of 10 misses from him always equals fast break points ont the other team. he shoots when our guys aren't situated for a rebound. He shoots with any attemps at running a play or passing. Those of you who remember my posts, I say again, I don't have a problem with Mobley taking a shot when he passes the ball around and gets the ball back with nobody guarding him or the lane is wide open. But more and more I realize he simply does not give a crap about who's open. He will shoot whenever. Cross dribble turn around, behind the back dribble, leaping fadeaways. His name shouldn't be "Mobley". It should be "Mo' ball for me." And every time we scream for the guards' heads, defenders always say look at their stats. well, they shoot 20 plus freaking shots a day, of course they are gonna rack up points. Look at Posey and Yao's number last night. Nowhere close to Mobley and Francis, but still played great.



if the Rockets want to win, get rid of his ass. But please don't even entertain the idea of bringing Cassell back. he is just as bad as Mobley.

 

Earlier this year, I went on record saying that Rudy T should be given the season to make the playoffs. More and more, though, I'm starting to agree with those who say it's time for him to go.

I remember reading somewhere a Rocket player saying they have the "most plays of anyone in the nba." Well, why is it that we only see a handful of them on a consistent basis?

I'm not an expert, but we almost exclusively go with the hi-low play or a pick & roll on the side. Both of which are good plays, but there is hardly ever any movement away from the ball so both plays typically just become window dressing for another one-on-one.

If I'm a defender, I've seen that a hundred times, the Rockets never swing the ball, and I'm not even worried about the weakside players....That's Rudy's fault.

If players are not executing and he allows it to continue...that's Rudy's fault.

If players don't go to Ming for 10 minutes in the third quarter while the lead is slipping away...that's Rudy's fault.

I'm not saying that the players don't share in the blame here. I agree with those that feel like blowing this team apart and if the right blockbuster trade materialized...say Garnnett...I'd do it in a heart beat. But the bottom line is the coach has to reign his players in.

Should Francis allow a player to not touch the ball for 10 minutes...no. But does that mean the coach can't call a player's number or sit Francis down...no.

I've been a Rocket's fan for a long time. When I lived in Houston in the 70s and early 80s, nothing would give me greater joy than going to see them play.

Like many posters, I pay for digital cable to watch them every game now. But this has just become painful to watch.

If Francis or Mobley can't get it, then trade them. If Rudy can't "get it" then fire him. It's time for the Rockets to start playing like a team again and something has to give.

 

hp:

Is anyone really advocating a dump it down offense? From what I've seen, most posters want to take advantage of Yao's playmaking skills. our complaints focus around the fact that when Yao actually is involved, the offense temporarily reverts to the Hakeem era. I'd rather see something new, that takes advantage of Yao's vastly superior passing skills, yet accounts for his poorer post game.

 

Great freakin reads here today. Goodness gracious great balls of fire.

Especially since the one dreamcast I have involves trading SF and getting KG in the bargain....and Oeilpere agrees, although he admits, it's a dream.

I would especially look into this because KG and Rudy really get along well. KG is the player that Rudy has always coveted (who wouldn't?) KG doesn't need babysitting. And he's versatile. You can put him anywhere on that front line.

Either Steve or Cat has to go, and of course moving Cat is easier, but maybe Rudy's holding on and will hunker down with CD and Les to see what they can do in the off-season.

You COULD get KG, but the complications involved are these:

1. Steve would be the bait. Steve's contract will be 1st-year BYC. But maybe you could overcome this with the magnitude of a trade.

2. Minnesota absolutely, positively does not want Steve Francis. This was mentioned during the summer when the Wolves were looking into trading KG. Our #1 pick would have been involved then. So you would have to involve a third team; but which? (Maybe Washington, Steve's hometown? Might as well make him "happy" if we trade him. Steve Francis and Eddie Griffin for Stackhouse and Brown, those players plus Glen Rice and Mo Taylor for KG and maybe a draft pick from either team to Houston? That sort of thing?)

3. KG makes beaucoup salary. Would we want to pay his grandfather clause? Or would he be amenable to scaling back his atrocious salary?

Ah. Perchance to dream.

In any case, clearly, Batman and Robin must go their separate ways. The West is too strong to rely on a couple of knuckleheads at the helm (hell, even Golden State's been winning). And I agree with HP. I'd rather keep Robin (Mobes, of course) if we could get someone of great value for Formerly-The-Franchise.

 

I understand that the Rockets teased us all with signs of "getting it" earlier in this era than we anticipated, but I think seriously consideration of firing Rudy or trading Francis at this point are major panic moves.

Look, Francis is a nutjob of a good player. He's not Magic or Jordan or Pistol, but he's not atypically selfish for a contemporary player. Comparing him with those guys is not fair -- they are from a different (and more palatable to folks like me) era. Nowadays, I'd compare him to elite guards Kobe, Iverson, Baron Davis, Gary Payton, and Steve Nash and whoever else. In that regard, he talks the talk better than most, and has absolutely shown signs of figuring out how to balance the individual achievement with the team improvement. Realistically, he comes from an era which so slams 'individual achievement' into a player -- and fan's head -- it is impossible to totally disregard the rewards of being self-serving on the court. Jeez, it only got him to the starting spot on the AllStar team.

Francis is flawed, but I disagree with the notion that "if he was going to 'get it' he would have gotten it by now." So far, he has been expected to deal with totally different teams, mostly injured ones with no scorers other than Cuttino. Trade Francis? For who? Bibby? Andre Miller? Forget it. We're not overstocked with scorers, folks, who else is going to go for 44 against LA? We need a nutjob-good player alongside Yao, and Cuttino doesn't count. The "ditch Steve" platform supposes that his points are easily replaced. I don't think they are, even with Jason Kidd or something. Unless Eddie Griffin blossoms into some scoring machine, we need Steve's points. That's the catch.

Can you imagine projecting to this point six months ago? Yao will pan out nearly-perfectly, we'll blow some games, Stevie will embrace the new team, TWO STARTERS on the All Star team, and we're battling for the lower-seeds in the West. What's so bad, exactly? No joke Steve does not "get it." Does Rudy? Does Eddie? Does MoTaylor? Does Cuttino? Do I? NO I DO NOT GET IT AT ALL! The team is young, looney and unpolished. This season is a tryout, not a Championship Run itself.

Yao gets it, but he gets everything. Getting it makes him weird, not normal. No one gets it, yet. I love that. I thought we 'got it' when Steve scored 44 against LA but managed to find Yao for that last dunk. That was 'it.' But, 'it' does not come in a day. Unless you happen to be a 6'8 forward who has played for twelve teams. Maybe 13, i forget. Need to read my own website. Need to update my own website, come to think of it.

I digress. If god knows one thing about me it is this: I Love Rudy Tomjanovich (TM). But man, of all our main pieces, I think he may be the most suspect at this point, and probably the one who will need to be tracked in terms of progress. Because of all the major pieces, he is probably the easiest to replace -- god I hate saying that. But he has been as flawed as anyone thus far, and -- like everyone -- he is trying out for the future of the Rockets.

That's fine. I hope he makes it. But I am giving these guys at least a full season -- maybe more -- to "get it."

CBFC

 

haven, Rockets Addict,

See if you can read this post without thinking I'm arguing. Read it from the standpoint that I love this game, and
it is times like this that make me excited to be a fan. Times of change. Can we breakthrough via practice and effort? Or was everything futile and the Coach and/or Star player just can't do it. Since the later is not a fun thought, I tend to stress the former...not to win arguments, but to express my love for watching bball development on teams where the players do play hard and don't squabble.

The reason I sound like a Rudy apologist is because I believe he wants more than the Hakeem low post game, too. I believe Yao cannot execute consistently from there with zones, and it robs him of some of his passing ability. People know he can pass now, and are watching the backdoor cuts.

I like the fact Rudy has chosen to move Yao to the high post, and I am thrilled with the double high post set we have.

Addict, the difference between you and I is I don't think basketball is played the best by calling a player's number. Largely one-option plays (the Posey curl play, Mo/Kenny on the block) is for special situations. I want my team to think on their feet and play motion systems. That takes reading defenses. Even if you don't run motion, complicated sets are derived from the players as a unit reading the best option. Don Nelson said he has a complicated system, then added that he uses just 6-7 sets. It is the reads and counters and ability to flex the ball to the weakside options with further teamwork that makes it complicated. It is not calling out 1001 different set plays from a football-like playbook.

So, if Francis cannot consistently read defenses (especially since he is being hit with different ones each game), then is it Rudy's fault? I don't get that part. Rudy can roll his eyes and say on that play "the Red Bullet Counter was available and you missed it again, Stevie. Didn't you see the phoney trap they did to you?"

One major problem that is almost always considered an excuse or a Francis/Rudy apology remains a problem no matter what bigger problems anyone wants to point out. The problem is that you cannot run a 5-man game with a bunch of guys who have never run it like Griffin, TMo, Hawkins, Mobley, Francis, Yao. But sticking with that plan, no matter how little the team gets it or utilizes it is still part of development towards solid solutions.

I've been saying this all year; bad 5-man offenses can look really bad. And I do agree that Francis just loses trust in it and tries to do other things. And I also believe Mobley/Francis consider any "mismatch" they have to be reasons to isolate.

But I have also seen some pretty excellent 5-man by this team this year. It is being preached. Is inconsistency in complicated offenses when Griffin is not getting it; Posey is bumping into guys; Rice is down; Maurice is not in game shape; Yao is exhausted sometimes; and Francis loses faith too much, and Mobley does his Vinnie Johnson thing....I just don't see reason for saying "That is Rudy's Fault." Not when I see enough evidence to know what they are preaching in practice, and, further, I don't personally believe in b****ing about players in public, so we have no evidence that Rudy isn't indeed upset and the players simply cannot pick up a 5-man game as a total unit that quickly, yet, we have evidence that they have executed motion this season.

We miss Rice and Maurice more than we are willing to admit. I would bench Griffin.

The patience/chemistry/work ethic approach is still the best one imo, when you are shifting to a 5-man game. I say that not as an excuse, but as utter respect for how good NBA defenses are and how hard it is to run 5-man games. We just need to keep working, players not quitting, and players still trusting the coaches...and the Sportscenter humiliation can only help the coaches, in that regard.

Steve needs to be humbled.

 

Great post, CBFC. Rudy may be the weakest link on this team, but I would give him at least to the end of the season before determining that (if it were up to me, possibly next season too). To expect much more from this team than we have seen is just an exercise in frustration. I still think we will make the playoffs this season. If we do, it should be seen as a hell of an accomplishment, instead of just on par for the course like so many seem to view it. There is nothing wrong with wanting more, but at least try to be realistic about it.

 

One thing that concerns me about Francis is that his peak may be on us sooner than we think. Do you see how many times the guy hits the floor in a given game? How long can his body take the beating he gets? I am scared to say this, but I have my doubts how long of an effective career he can have. That being said, given his build, he will probably be able to take a little more punishment than Iverson. Also, his 3-point percentage is up this year, so maybe that will prolong his career.

 

I dunno but it sho look stupid

skippin and **** ain't that a b****....

 

I don't really have a problem with the sets for the most part, but tell me this, why do we run the same thing over and over, then move to the next one over and over then tothe next. The Rockets have a basicall 3 sets: They have the Posey play when he gets a double down screen, curls, and has been hitting that 17ft jumper. They have the Taylor/Griffin/Ming play. Thats when the double high pick and roll, the guard rolls, Ming drops into the lane and either Taylo or griffin throws it to him in the middle of the lane. A variation of this is when the guard chooses to go off the pf, then he rolls and post up on the block. Then they have the francis/mobley play. This is typically a pnr with ming and gives the guards a pick to roll and shoot. My thing is that since these sets aren't intertwined, they all have to be called from the sidelined and slows up the pace of the game. Evereytime the rockets get a rebound, the guards look to the sideline for a called play. Next time you watch a transitional team, watch how many plays the coach call from the bench. The double high pick play should be incorporated with the Posey play to give the offense some fluidity. The guard play should be ran all in one with the Posey play to give it fluidity. These sets should be intertwined together to give the offense more of a flow and the team more options instead of force shot clock shots.

I really don't like thethought of Francis playing the 2 guard. I know in certain situations like N.O. and Philly they can run it and everyone wants to copy philly's clone with iverson, but basically Brown took about 3 yrs off iversons career. Once he starts to slow down a little, he won't be nearly as effective because he's constantly shooting over guys 4" taller than him. I'm just into the mode of taking away his tunnel vision for Mobley. I think it would do wonder for the team and his decision making also. Last night after Posey had made a couple of those jumpers, he back cut and ran baseline free and had his manned pinned for an easy basket. Francis had only 1 real option and that was to feed him,instead he chose to throw the ball across court out of bounds for 1 of his 7 to's. Now don't get it twisted, I'm gld that the rockets won the game and Francis had 9 asst, but all that was offset by the 7 to's. If he gets his avg, we probably win by 10. I just think he looks for him too much and forces the ball that way. Like when no shooting ,no dribbling Anderson said that he was fozen out by Francis and company, posters jumped and talked about all of andersons shortcomings, but when you really look into it, its nothing but thuth.Am i saying we should bring anderson back? No. I'm simply saying what he said was the truth and no one wanted to hear it. Now we look up and see Ming being done the same way and now people see the problem. I really would like to break this up by addition by subtraction. I will say it once and say it again that if you can unload Taylor,Griffin,and Cat for Shareef , I would do it in a heartbeat. After that, you install Posey at the 2 and Morris at the 3 and you would have more of a team than a bunch of non fitting parts. This would pretty much force Francis to trust his other teammates because then he would have a consistent scorer in SAR, 2 slasher hustle guys in Morris and Posey and Ming. Off the bench would be a hustle guy like Hawkins and maybe Nachbar and also maybe with Cato getting backup minutes at the 4 and the 5 it would be enough to justify that money he's getting. I'm not sure it would happen because the team is winning and are playing ok, but you can't be afraid of improving the team. Indy made a mid season trade last yr and is relly paying off for them. The Kings have added or subtracted players 2 yrs in a row after winning 55 and 60 games and they have been better also. Detroit gave away their leading scorer and replaced him with a more effecient team concept type scorer in Hamilton. Change can be good, but change to become better not just for the sake of change.

 

I'm with you, leebigez.

I liked the way the ball moved when the Cat was down, earlier this year. Unfortunately, we couldn't buy a jump shot without him, and EG was(is) non-existant as an offensive option. Now, had we replaced them with a real force, and Cat's not clogging up the backcourt and offensive flow, then we have the options to move to score at 4, at 5 and with Steve.
The other guys slash and move and pass and set up the three who can handle a double team, or score when they can effectively. Teams will leave a Tmo or Posey (or EG) open in that set, of course, but those guys will at least try to swing it back to one of the 3 scorer stars. They play within the team game. I think Steve can do it. Even if I'm wrong, I still think I can move him as an allstar marketing force later. But I think he has already shown he can play better ball with Cat gone.

 

I don't think they get it. The Rockets think the problem is with Yao, not with the Francis or Cat. This is evident by the fact that Les was showing Yao how to shoot hook shot.