What about men? Why don't you and others express outrage when the story involves a man instead of a woman? I am guessing I am not the only one who noticed that pretty much all of these stories in the paper involve a woman being punished under the laws of those countries. In reality, the majority of those punished under these laws are men, not women. Not really directed at you per se, but just in general I would like to know the reason as to why the Western press selectively weeds out those cases involving a woman. Cultural sensitivity may be?
Not cultural sensitivity - it's pure and unadulterated jingoism. It's the "we're better than them mentality" - see, look at those barbarians. They treat their women like dogs. Disgusting. Never woudl happen here - we are civilized. Someone should help those people out of the middle-ages, that's what our foreign policy should be. No wonder they hate us. Men and Women.
Can you say it's true that they are barbarians? That's not a statement that can be settled as the truth or not. It's a subjective tack. It's the prespective itself that's jingoistic. If you want to say that the laws in Saudi Arabia are too harsh. That's one thing. If you want to say women should have more liberty there and everywhere - that's fine. But we see liberty through our own lens. Some would say women in America are being repressed by their abortion rights being curved and challenged. By Europeans standards, we're the barbarians for allowing capital punishment. I don't think we're less civilized then the Europeans. But Europeans have that attitude towards us. Is it jingoism? Yes. Is it based on truth.... you tell me.
tiger, who has said that giving lashes for "crimes" to men, that are guilty of what American teenagers do on a Saturday night, is fine and that we don't care about that, that we don't mind that that is happening, that we think the punishment handed out to British sailors 2 or more certuries ago for forgetting to salute an officer was a humane act? That's it's groovy because they are men? I never have. Because the treatment of women in our own country, and in much of the world, is unequal, even in the 21st century, doesn't make the treatment of men in countries like the Kingdom something to be applauded. The fact of the matter is that the treatment of women is far worse by degrees. It's not that the treatment of men is right, as the collapse of the aristocracy and it's cynical grip on the country will make clear, someday, but that the treatment of women is extreme and beyond anything men are subjected to on a daily basis. In our country, women are fighting for equality with regard to wages, promotions, control of their own bodies. What is done to women far to often in countries like the Kingdom are at a completely different level. Why on earth should we shrug and say it's their own business? We can express our displeasure in different ways. Certainly, no one is saying we should invade the Kingdom to give women rights that are basic in the United States and the developed countries of the West. Why criticizing their treatment, so much worse than what is acceptable in advanced countries, despite not being perfect (is anything ever "perfect?"), should be assaulted is beyond the meanest understanding. Just as women in developed countries deserve better treatment regarding unequal rights (as do minorities, etc.), so do women in countries like the Kingdom deserve better treatment for inequality carried out to an extreme, compared to our own. We should speak out in favor of better treatment for women. After all, they make up a majority of the world's population. One could even make a comparison to the instances we are all aware of, those with any knowledge of history, where a minority oppressed the majority to maintain power. It happens in many places, and has happened in the past... the oppressed majority, men and women both, suffering under dictatorial regimes. The spectacle of someone like NewYorker, taking an argument about this topic to different threads, not because, in my opinion, he feels strongly about it, but that he justs likes to play his games, is pathetic. He drags up this topic in a thread about the mad decision of a German judge, and drags up the Holocaust, to somehow compare the act of a single judge in Germany to the terrible unequal treatment of women, on a regular basis, in the Kingdom. The act of a single person in a highly developed state to an entire system of oppression based on sex and maintaining the power of a minority simply does not compare. Happy Easter. D&D. Women Deserve Equality.
people who take these religious books to determine their values are stupid. these books were written hundreds of years ago...things change
Typical NewYorker type of post. He’d lick your ass if you disagree with his enemies (the people whom he is arguing against), even though what you say has nothing to do with the issues that he and his enemies are debating on. Hey NewYorker, if you can read, tigermission1 has not endorsed anything that you have said, he just pointed out that we should concerned about the unfairness of the Saudi law to both men and women, instead of just the women. I know you are now trying very hard to divert the topic to climb out of the hole that you have dug for yourself in other thread. But let me just refresh your memory here in case you have Alzheimer disease. You have been arguing since page 1 in the gang-rape thread that the raped victim has committed a crime and that she deserved the punishment and the lashes. And you also have problem with the people who complained about the Saudi legal system being backward and unreasonable. Listen, no one has said anything that Saudi men deserves to have more legal rights than Saudi women. The gender issue has become part of the discussion now only because you had been low enough to put those words in other people’s mouths, hypocrite. NewYorker is desperate. NewYorker is looking for allies. NewYorker will lick your ass if you are willing to be one.
And to you and yours, my wise friend. Obviously, I am not in any way 'condoning' the treatment of those women, even by Islamic standards a lot of women in those societies are denied their inherent rights granted to them by the shari'ah and in many cases are actively discriminated against. I was merely pointing out the fact that our press far too often neglects the more prevalent issue of those governments' 'mistreatment' of their male citizens. I think the media -- to some degree -- panders to its audience in a way that would reinforce the stereotype of the poor, oppressed Muslim woman. Sadly, what's often lost in all this is the fact that the male citizens of those countries bear the brunt of that injustice. I am yet to see an article about a man getting lashed or stoned to death for his actions in the Western press, I might have missed it but the only time it gets 'noticed' is when it involves a woman. All I am asking is this: is there a reason for that? Would the outrage be the same if it was a man? I don't think so...
I can’t answer for tigermission1 here but for most of the people I think it’s because we are in general more compassionate to women. Even in today’s world, we generally believe that women need more protection than men do. It’s similar situation in the NBA where the referees and fans are usually more compassionate to the smaller guys and often call fouls on the bigger guys when there is contact. Only someone like you would think the reason is that people practice racial superiority here. Only someone like you would pull the jingoism bull**** out of your ass. And how many more threads, like the poll thread for dog’s poop, are you going to start in order to ‘win’ the argument. You are turning this board into your personal battlefield to fight your critics in order not to lose the debate. It’s selfish.
Deck, you paid me the complement in another thread of citing one of my post and saying you don't know why you bother to post when others put it so well. Now I pay you that complement back. Very well put..
I find it amusing how much guys like Deckard (and indirectly yourself) still need to go on the personal offensive and tar me anyway they can. Questioning what you hold to be true simply is something not possible with people. It's really interesting. I have to say - despite Deckards presumptions, there isn't anything I have more passion about then understanding how people ingrain themselves into certain modes of thinking - locked in to a world based on a moral framework that is rigid. And instead of letting it fail and realizing that there is no single moral framework, they warp and interpret anything to hold up their false reality....because it's safe and makes sense. If you can't question your most dear and core beliefs - and see the truth in other perspectives - because ultimately - truth is not an absolute - particularly moral truth, then what are you but a dogmatic mind who has impriosoned themselves into a structure that only seeks to self-perpetuate itself. I suppose I am naieve in thinking that direct challenge will ever force questioning - which is really my only aim. This failure is genuinely disappointing - and clearly a failue all my own. Nevertheless - i wish people were able to discuss things without attaching personal bias's and anger they may have to others, defensive, and fears. But it's clear - you can't directly reason with people. People are irrational. Completely and truly.
NewYorker, you must be staring into a mirror when you wrote this post. Actually, you would become much less an ass by not doing what you have said in your own post. Direct challenge? What direct challenge? Who needs your direct challenge here? Are you a motivational speaker or what? Or are you just saying that casually poking offending racist jokes and repeatedly using racist slurs is your way of directly challenging the other posters here? And then you talked about people being irrational. ROFL. Know what? you have immediatly become the definition of an irrational person when you pulled the jingoism and superiority mentality bull****s out of your ass in that gang rape thread. And irrational people also start stupid threads about dog's poops and even set up a poll for it. Irrational people also refuse to back down after his fallacies and lies have been repeatedly exposed but still selfishly continue to use this board to defend himself with more fallacies in order not to lose an debate on the internet.
Wow. First a wonderful compliment from tiger, and now one from you. Maybe I should hang it up and quit posting. It can't get any better than this. Thank you, and thanks to tiger. (and I understood your point, tiger) Wow. Oh, right... I said that! D&D. In Orbit!
