German Chancellor says "German multicultural society has utterly failed"

I doubt it, he was too busy on Omaha beach fighting the Germans.

And the other one was bombing them as a gunner on a B24.



DD

 

Sarkozy joins in.

I pretty much agree with Sarkozy, and I think his quotes are far more effective at getting across what Merkel was trying to say in the OP.

 

I'm surprised you agree...I do, too.

 

I agreed with you earlier in this thread as I recall. I've also picked analogous fights with Judoka over this. Generally speaking, I don't support allowing "culture" to trump "rights". Inasmuch as I define my conception of "rights" with a prevalence towards westernized notions such as democracy and equality one might accuse me of bias. I prefer, however, to think that said political ideology is objectively superior to autocratic or patriarchal or theological (etc) systems; bias it may be, but it's justifiable and easily supported.

 

Sorry, just re-read the thread myself and noticed that...I had your position confused with Sishir's.

 

I agree that the governments have failed to integrate the communities into a multicultural society.

It's a European problem IMO. This problem doesn't exist in the same way elsewhere. The president and government of America, for example, have been far more protective towards accepting other cultures into their own melting pot.

The difference is that Americans understand that multiculturalism entails the fusion of cultures, and allowing culture to develop and grow. This is, for example, why Italian-American is different than Italian, and Irish-American is different than Irish. That's Multiculturalism at work.

In Europe though, the population expects that immigrants are culturally cleansed and re-programmed to become culturally purely European. The idea of a part of Turkish culture fusing into German culture is unacceptable. The idea of Algerian culture merging into French culture is repulsive to many, as evidenced by French elitists reaction to trivial things such as musical influence.

I truly respect the US for that. Racism and bigotry exist, as they do everywhere else, but I would say overall big-city Americans are among the most tolerant people in the world, and are the champions of multiculturalism. They seem to understand what a melting pot is, and not just in a financial/political sense.

I'm extremely disgusted with Europe. Obviously, the distinction between the history of Europe and America plays a central role > Europe has historically been the most resistant to immigration, while America was built through immigration. But for governments to come out and declare multiculturalism a failure, not blame themselves, and insinuate that alternative methods of achieving better multiculturalism are NOT being pursued - that's going back at least 70-80 years in development.

 

what were they, 70? impressive.

 

I lol'd when I heard Cameron say this last week.

Trust me, if there's any society that's good at reminding outsiders & those who don't belong of their proper status, the Englishare as good as pretty much anybody in the Western hemisphere- I mean their whole cultural tradition is kind of built on it.

Was trying to figure out why he'd jump on this silly little hobby horse, and I assume its becuase the "austerity" magical thinking economics plan is not working out to well.

And by that I mean a total disaster that appears to be shrinking their eocnomy and making all of their problems worse.

 

Well yeah, that's true. I bolded it because I liked the sentiment, not for its accuracy or as a statement of the speakers honest sincerity.

 

I think people tend to look past obvious differences that explain why things work in one part of the world and not others. the US celebrates different cultures because the US is founded by immigrants. although unfortunately we are seeing more of a backlash today, that's due more the economy more than anything else.

secondly, in the US, we aren't living on top of each other. i truly believe being more spread out, people's differences don't get in the way of each other. that maybe an oversimplification but I believe its a factor.

 

Not necessarily a good thing, you know...

 

Snookie is not Italian. Adopted Chilean, I believe

 

This is unbelievable nonsense. Turkish culture has obviously already blended into and changed German culture - which is perfectly fine. If you spent time in Germany and did not notice it, you are blind. What most people have a problem with is those people that lock up their wives at home, hide them behind a veil, don't allow them to learn German and/or talk to other people, and only let them talk - at most - to other Turks in Germany. The same people often don't make any effort themselves to learn the language, other than what they need to make some money. This is far from expecting "cultural cleansing" and "re-programming"...these words are so out of place that they almost top any other nonsense you have ever written here (and that means something).

Again, completely wrong. For most people (except the obvious racists and bigots) "merging into French culture" is fine - the problem is where ghettos are created and there is not only unwillingness to integrate into French society at least as far as certain minimum standards go (basic language skills, respectful treatment of women), but outright rejection of your host country and its people (but not rejection of the social benefits the host country offers).

How much time have you spent in the US? Did you ever live there? Just curious.

Again, this is complete bullcrap and nonsense (as well as being your usual melodramatic exaggerations ("I'm extremely disgusted"...when will you ever say that when some Islamist goes around killing people again?)). Europe has also been built through immigration. About 10 % of the population in Germany are foreigners (this doesn't count all the people who already have a German passport, and there are millions, especially of Turkish descent). France, I believe, has higher numbers. Also, when governments declare multiculturalism a failure, they do blame themselves (or previous governments) - they blame themselves for not having done more to ease integration and acceptance. You still have not understood in what sense they use the word "multiculturalism". I explained it in previous posts - the criticism is against living side by side, instead of living together - and the truth is that there is a lot of "side by side" rather than "together" in the United States as well. Criticism of multiculturalism does not mean opposition to immigration. It means a criticism of not doing anything or not enough to help the newcomers to integrate themselves into society and thereby also not doing enough to make the society accept the newcomers better (it starts with the language!). Read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalism

 

you are both wrong.

 

I am right.

 

I've boosted the American system of integration above the Europeans, even support some of the Europeans' "cultural protection" policies, but it's not like ours doesn't share its own host of problems.

The US is less of a melting pot and more of a meat stew with chunks different ethnic enclaves scattered around an urban city. I'm sure xenophobes and one language lovers know and harp on this, but it's definitely possible to live in a large American city and get by with only a rudimentary understanding of English. On the flipside, it cripples your chances of rising into the medium class.

So I wouldn't say that our cultural approach to assimilation is perfect. It's a bit ahead of the Euros, if only because of our structural differences in employment. Forcing people to spend a lot of time together doesn't grow trust. It only fosters the possibility to melt down cultural barriers and anxieties to work together for a common goal. If each stakeholder can't claim something out of that, then no amount of enforcement or rules will change their hard wired limitations.

 

I don't know as much about Canada, but from what I understand it's just as culturally tolerant if not more. I believe it's historical development mirrors that of the US?

 

Mehh. There is a lot of every kind of bigotry and racism in every country and culture, I just think it has garnered the most political and democratic support in Europe. The European use of the word "ghetto" is a prime example, as you've done here. FWIW, your immigrants are not different than US immigrants. English is just much easier to learn.

I've never lived in the US no. But my neighbour growing up was American and I have a few American friends :grin: .

lol jokes aside, Europe's history wrt immigration is very different than the US. The person who established the USA was essentially an immigrant. Everyone in America is a relatively recent immigrant. Whereas Europe has been Europe.

Immigration means you lose old culture and add new culture. But it seems to me that Europeans don't want to lose any culture, but do want immigrants to lose much of their own culture and adopt European culture. That's not fusion. If an immigrant doesn't want to learn the language and is still entitled to social benefits, that's not his problem, it's the law-makers' problem. But it seems you guys are happy to blame the immigrants. For what? For being lazy? Is it only the immigrants in Germany who are reaping social benefits and not contributing to the country? Then why do you insist on calling this an immigrant problem? Why is it so heavily linked to language and social behavior? How would it help you if they learned the language and still sat at home unemployed and disinterested?

Europe's problem is that it does not recognize the source of the problems, and therefore it's remedial actions are attempts at cosmetic change. To put it simplistically, it's like you moving to Ghana and the people are constantly shouting in your face "WHY AREN'T YOU INTEGRATING, WHY DONT YOU SPEAK THE LANGUAGE, I'M GOING TO LOBBY TO KICK YOU OUT, YOU'RE LAZY!!" Is that going to get you to integrate? lol

Good for you. I don't agree with Europe's approach, maybe you do. As the saying goes, multiculturalism has failed. No one is blameless, we just disagree on the proportion of the responsibility/blame being shouldered.