I've only glanced at this thread but to follow up on Glynch's post I'm not sure there is a good guy here. Its obviously wrong for the Russians to invade another soveriegn country and clearly the Russians have many other reasons than to protect the Ossetians and Abkhazians to assert their power on Georgia but at the same time Shaliskaskvilli (sp) should've known better than provoke Russia by attempting a crackdown in Ossetia. I don't know what the Georgians were thinking when they started their crackdown that the Russians would backdown or that the West would step in to help them out but clearly the miscalculated. Russia was looking for an excuse to step in and the Georgians gave them that excuse. I will make it clear again this doesn't make them right but at the same time there is a reason why you don't go and poke a hungry bear.
Who knows. But this incident isn't the only one reported on today. This reporter actually got grazed by a bullet while on-air. CNN Video link: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalist.shot.gerogiastatetv
I have to side with Deckard to some degree, it seems the respone is "don't put NATO bases so close", but the issue of Georgia being an allied partner is obvious... We work with the Georgian military, and they have given us support...I'm mad at the russians for this brutality- no international plea before going in/surprise attack... I hope we do what's needed to continue to help...
I really don't get this either. It's the one step that completely mystifies me. Listened to a very long interview on NPR with a journalist who has worked in Georgia and written about the region. (Name Taub, Traub, Trout? Ugh) Interesting bits: Guy's reliable diplomatic sources confirm that US has maintained stance against such Georgian activity in back channels. basically saying no, no, no don't you ever do this idiots. So no encouragement from US via official or unofficial channels. Georgian pres. ran on platform of uniting these regions with Georgia proper. Public pressure for this is significant. Putin should not have been the one involved, given his new alleged title/role, but this event made it very clear that Medvedev (sp) is a figurehead who doesn't even warrant B-Bob learning his name.
Yea, they showed how some Georgian irregulars are firing at anything that moves on foxnews...It is getting crazy/chaotic..Russians are supposedly "keeping the peace", by guarding seized soveriegn Georgian military areas with armored vehicles (in clear violation of international law)...crazy
Georgia may have succeeded in doing one thing right...further alienating Russia from the West and democratic countries in the region. I'm only waiting for Bush to stand somewhere with a "Mission Accomplished" sign hanging behind him. Look...Russia overreacted and made themselves out to be the bad guys. Now, let's find a way to get back at them. Kick them out of NATO. Kick them off the economic council. Oh...but we still need rides on your Soyuz capsule to get to the space station. Oops. But, cough, mission accomplished. lol I'm actually surprised at the number of Russian troops that died and were wounded. They had more casualties than our initial invasion of Iraq when we made it all the way to Baghdad. Does that make what they did worth it? I don't think so...unless they plan on staying in Georgia.
I don't think they will stomach that...For one thing, bruised, bloodied, and humuliated, the Georgian irregulars are icthing to fight dirty..., heck they are firing at reporters, anybody... Desides that the regular army is no pushover and knows the terrain...
I'm just skimming this thread but caught this whopper, and I don't mean flame broiled patty. Neither the current Bush Admin. or the GH Bush Admin got a resolution to invade Iraq. The 1991 resolution was for pushing Iraq out of Kuwait and didn't authorize invading Iraq. The current Bush Admin didn't even bother with a vote on a resolution authorizing force in Iraq and abandoned the UN effort when it was clear that they weren't likely to win a vote in the UNSC. take a look at the thread about underage gymnists and you will see a lot of people complaining about the PRC breaking international law.
In other words their going to use the tactics that Hezbollah used to defeat Israel two years ago, the Mahdi militia are using against us in Iraq and the Taliban against us in Afghanistan.
Honestly I don't think there is much we can do. We can and will engage in raising a stink in diplomatic circles, we will talk about sanctions but with oil still at very high prices I doubt that the only sanctions that matter, oil and gas, will be imposed. What I'm willing to lay money on is that the US and NATO will not go engage in a military confrontation with Russia over Georgia.
Georgia gives up South Osettia and Abkhazia; Saakashvili is quietly replaced after some time; Russia retreats out of Georgia; the pipelines stay in Western control, the Ukraine is eventually admitted to NATO; Russian gas prices to Europe rise to almost unbearable rates. Stalemate Russians get so rich they won't mow their own lawns, they allow illegal immigration for cheap labor and soon become a minority in their own land.
I think Obama should fly to Georgia to give a speech on how the Russians should withdraw or there will be serious consequences.
I said the same thing earlier, somewhere in D&D. Why not? McCain is sending LIEberman and Graham in a blatant political move. Barack should trump it by going himself. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
This does not sound Russian does it? Yes Russia started it all http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558619.stm
Iraq was under a arms embargo and only had Soviet Era weapons. The Georgians have more modern weaponry and have some modern weaponry available as well as US support, also Russia did not establish air superiority until 2 or 3 days into the fight.
Look, you are obviously free to believe Putin if you wish, but the article you linked to doesn't provide anything like enough support for me to change my opinion. Nope, nada, no how. Moscow says that 1,600 civilians died in the fighting in Ossetia. In Tskhinvali, locals claimed bodies had lain in the streets for some time, and many are now buried in temporary graves in back yards. We saw no evidence to support - or dispute - the numbers. On the next street, an armoured personnel carrier carrying Russian troops rolled past the mangled metal wreckage of two Georgian tanks. Other soldiers stopped to take trophy photographs. We were escorted in South Ossetia by the Russian military, which now controls most of the territory here. Pointing out the tank wreckage, the deputy commander of Russian ground forces insisted that Georgia was the initial aggressor in this conflict - sending in tanks that targeted Russians and Ossetians. "Half an hour before the tanks began firing, the Georgian peacekeepers disappeared from the base," said Igor Konashenkov. "They left their food uneaten and abandoned their kit. Then the shooting began." Their presence is popular with many locals, who wave as soldiers drive past in the street. (Sure... the Georgians have fled - Deckard) Heading out of Tskhinvali, we passed several houses in flames and many others that had already been burned out. At least two of the villages, including Kekhvi, were home to ethnic Georgians in Ossetia before this conflict, when, it appears, most of them fled. We met no Georgians at all on this trip. "There were Georgian snipers in the villages and they were driven out," said the military spokesman we were travelling with. "Russian special forces will have used mortars and firebombs and the houses went up in flames. It's not revenge burnings." But some suggest Ossetian militia are looting and burning in the Georgian villages. We had no way to investigate that. Either way, there will soon be little left for the Georgians to return to. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558619.stm I'm curious... if you don't mind, could you mention how old you are? You don't seem to recall what Putin did before taking power, and I won't get into how he took power here, you seem to not remember the lengths Russia, AKA the Soviet Union (by the way the country has been acting, they remind me very much of the old Soviet empire), will go to in order to control the media's coverage of events, both in Russia (just examine what Putin has done to the Russian media) and here in Georgia, in my opinion. The BBC reporter was very frank about stating that their visit was controlled by the Russian military. You might consider reading the report again. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4535173.ece It's all John McCain's fault! Kremlin dusts off Cold War lexicon to make US villain in Georgia Russians were told over breakfast yesterday what really happened in Georgia: the conflict in South Ossetia was part of a plot by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, to stop Barak Obama being elected president of the United States. The line came on the main news of Vesti FM, a state radio station that — like the Government and much of Russia's media — has reverted to the old habits of Soviet years, in which a sinister American hand was held to lie behind every conflict, especially those embarrassing to Moscow. Modern Russia may be plugged into the internet and the global marketplace but in the battle for world opinion the Kremlin is replaying the old black-and-white movie. The Obama angle is getting wide play. It was aired on Wednesday by Sergei Markov, a senior political scientist who is close to Vladimir Putin, the Prime Minister and power behind President Medvedev. “George Bush's Administration is promoting interests of candidate John McCain,” said Dr Markov. “Defeated by Barak Obama on all fronts, McCain has one last card to play yet - the creation of a virtual Cold War with Russia . . . Bush himself did not want a war in South Ossetia but his Republican Party did not leave him any choice.” The Americans were now engineering an armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia, Dr Markov added. The Establishment and its media supporters are dusting off favourites from the Cold War shelf. Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, accused Washington of playing dangerous games. The West was guilty of “adventurism”, supporting aggression against peace-loving Russian forces who are engaged on a humanitarian mission to protect human life. Yesterday's headline in Commersant, a generally admired newspaper, announced with old-style sarcasm the imminent American “Military Humanitarian Landing” in Georgia. A classic of Soviet-speak also came from Vasili Lickhachev, a former Russian Ambassador to the EU. “The West has spent a lot of time, energy and money to teach Georgia the tricks of the trade . . . to make the country look like a democracy,” he said. “We and many other nations see through this deceit. We understand that the seditious tactics of the so-called colour revolutions are a real threat to international law and the source of global legal nihilism.” These grooves from the Cold War grave are shrugged off by many Russians but they strike a chord in a nation ready once again to see itself as the victim of outside conspiracy. Blogs everywhere attract conspiracy lovers but Russian blogs have been exceptionally rich this week in theories of Western skulduggery over Georgia. The old thinking finds more fertile ground now because, in the view of disillusioned Russians, President Bush relaunched the ideological war through a compliant American media, especially at the time of the invasion of Iraq. “In the old days under Soviet rule we didn't believe a word of our own propaganda but we thought that information was free in the West and we longed for it,” said Katya, a middle-aged Muscovite. “But we have learnt since that the West has its own propaganda and in some ways it is more powerful because people believe it.” Moscow is using novel methods to spread a very unsubtle, Cold War version of the Caucasian conflict to the world. Chief among them is Russia Today, a state 24-hour news channel that is fronted much of the time by cheery British and other English-speaking television professionals. The smiles and studio banter could come from BBC World or CNN but the story is unrelentingly the Kremlin version. Banners flash along at the bottom of the screen saying such things as “genocide” and “aggression” or “city turns into human hell, many people still trapped under rubble”. Recapping the conflict yesterday RT's presenter said that Georgia's “brutal assault” had killed 1,600 civilians in its breakaway province in a campaign that destroyed 70 per cent of the buildings in Tskhinvali, its capital. Russian forces had moved in only to bring peace as Georgian forces killed women and children who were trying to flee, it said. Throughout its rolling cover of alleged Georgian atrocities, there was no mention of the heavy Russian military offensive. The coverage goes down well in developing countries that want an alternative to CNN and BBC World Service, a Russian official said. “We have learnt from Western TV how to simplify the narrative.” The Soviet crackdown — In January 1968 Alexander Dubcek became First Secretary of the Czechoslovak Communist Party, instituting the “Prague Spring” liberalising reforms — In August the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact invaded, below, claiming that its assistance had been requested by Communist Party leaders. Dubcek was arrested — Lyndon Johnson, the US President, declared the invasion in violation of the United Nations Charter, but America was in the middle of a presidential election campaign and a war in Vietnam. The West took no action — In 1988 mass demonstrations marked the anniversary — The Communists were finally ousted in 1989 and Václav Havel was elected President in what became known as the Velvet Revolution. Soviet forces withdrew in 1991
