AleksandarN Sam is this boards version of Joe McCarthy. Don't bother trying to discuss shades of gray. You are either with us or against us. I agree with him that on the surface Kosovo appeared more of a pure humanitarian effort and South Ossetia is more obviously a war of economic domination with only the faintest ploy of humanitarianism. But both are pawn plays in the chess match of of Cold War power.
Oh no, you're not getting away with this nonsense, Deckard. At which people? You? Because I certainly wasn't making a reference to you, or anybody on this board for that matter. You were the one who took the reference and made it your own. I believe there are reasonable and intelligent people on both sides of the political aisle, liberal and conservative. Heck, Obama is a liberal and I like him. I thought I was talking to such reasonable people, but you're trying really hard to prove me wrong. It *is* recycled. It's all Bush's fault. Beat that dead horse if you want to, fine. I'm not beating it with you, that's all. My statement was about Russia, not about Bush. Go read it again. I know Impeach Bush is your personal mantra, and that is important to you. I'm not interested in that discussion. I personally don't approve of Bush's body of work as president of this country, but I don't like beating dead horses either. See what I mean. How can you be civil when you can't keep yourself from putting words in my mouth? My reference to "soft cuddly hippies" was to people who are ignorant of macro geopolitical issues and fail to see the big picture -- people to whom everything is about some innocent repressed group of people fighting for "freedom". I made that description quite implicit in my statement. I didn't realize that description applied to you. This is the problem. On both sides of the aisle, it's the same thing. Can't ever talk about the issue at hand. It's always us against them. "Oh noes, he said hippies, he must be talking about me. Better insult him back as hard as I can so I can show him who's boss in D&D." It's more than petty. It's nothing but mental futility.
As a Latvian, I am really worried about what's happening in Georgia. I am not really buying this 'Georgia attacked first' claim. It would be no surprise to me if they were provoked and Russia set this up as an excuse for their actions. In that case blaming the Georgians for starting this is like blaming a victim who with his resistance angered his killer who just wanted to rape him. If however Georgia really is to blame and believed the West would risk a war with Russia over them, not a smart move obviously. Just thinking out loud...As I said I am worried. I don't have illusions of the Western Europe and especially the United States doing everything they can to protect us despite us being a part of both NATO and EU.
I don't doubt for a second that what you said is what happened. Putin and the Russian brass have been planning this for a long time, in my opinion. And yes, you should be concerned. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
I’m shocked at the media’s response to this conflict; the criticism Russia is receiving is extremely harsh.
Missed the above in a long article. Just think who will benefit from a new cold war. The military industrial complex, the neo-cons, McCain? Putin?
Heck no! Though isn’t it unfair to completely with a doubt portray Russia as a rising evil empire (as many media outlets are doing)? We are so quick to dismiss the claims that Russia is making and talking about disproportionate responses; yet there have been a few incidents similar to this and the response has been light in comparison.
No, the KGB government is evil. It's just a bunch of mobsters running a protection racket. This was a fully orchestrated power play. They don't want any competition even though they have a monopoly all ready. It's payback for Kosovo , a serious message to the former states and designed to scare NATO from ever adding Georgia and the Ukraine, lest they be dragged into yet another world war. It started during the Olympics! That was no accident. I suspect they figured it would quick stop the recent decline in world oil prices too. win/win/win....no downside. Why would South Ossetia want to come under Russian rule? What's in it for them? Is it just the local hoods who know if they work for the Big Boss they can take over all the scams in SO?
I suggest you delve into this further, ChrisBosh. This move was long planned by Putin. It simply awaited an excuse, which Russia has been trying to provoke for a long time. "Insurgents" have been attempting to get Georgia to respond to attacks, and those "insurgents" have been supplied and directed, in my opinion, covertly by Russia. The story of "ethnic cleansing" is rediculous. Will there be ethnic cleansing now that Russia's army is providing protection? You can count on it, but it will be ethnic Georgians suffering that fate, while the Russians sit back and watch. We should be very worried about Russia. Do they stop at annexing the two "disputed" regions that are sovereign Georgian territory, or will they occupy the major ports on the Black Sea, as well as staying astride the main (and only) road and rail line that connects the rest of Georgia with the western region on the coast? If it is the latter, they will have tossed billions of dollars in investments and infrastructure from Europe and America, built to move Caspian Sea area oil and gas to markets in Europe and the West, into a bonfire, with grave implications for the US and our allies. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
Deckard, you’ve already called them guilty without any proof, yes Russia has a dirty past, and I’m assuming you are using this as leverage for your conclusion, but doesn’t every country have blood on their hands? All I’m saying is that the media has done the same thing, they haven’t even chosen to look into what is true or not, they’re just bashing Russia. When we went into Iraq, at least the media waited until we found out the WMD claim was not true, though still we didn’t call Bushy and his boys evil (at least not the media, I know where you stand on this ). All I am trying to say is that the media isn’t really being fair. I’m just questioning the tone of criticism, not whether they should be criticized or not....should have made this clearer from the start.
I've been following events in this region for a long time and have come to my conclusions based on my own extensive reading, not what I'm seeing on CNN. Russian claims they are invading Georgia to "save it." A more Orwellian turn of phrase would be hard to find. There are reports of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Georgian civilians being killed and maimed and tens of thousands are fleeing for their lives. There are credible reports of looting by the Russian Army, which is largely made up of conscripts and famous for being paid next to nothing. If you chose to believe what the Russian media is reporting to the Russian people, go right ahead. I do not. In fact, it is very hard for me not to type "the Soviet Army," because this is a classic Soviet power play. Don't want a new Cold War? Neither do I. Between Putin and Bush, we may find ourselves in one, anyway. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
Well, Deckard, it is hard to trust the US media after Iraq and all the ways they laid down for the Bush Presidency. I have no doubt that the Russian media would lie. I doubt the Russians are trying to save Georgia and I doubt that the neo-cons in the Bush Adminstration give a flip about it either except for the way it fits their ideology and their pocketbooks. There were reports of hundreds, if not thousands of Ossetians being killed also when the Georgians started this war. This is hardly mentioned now. IMHO the neo-cons are at least as war like as the Russians. The actions by the Russians pales in comparison with our tragedy in Iraq. I guess the truth will come out , but I expect that it is somewhere in between the official Russian version and what is currently our mainstream media take on this. The Georgians should not have attacked and slaughtered the Ossetians. The Russian should not have crossed into undisputed Georgia and killed Georgians. The US and allies should not have tried to put NATO bases on the Russian border. There is a lot of blame to go around.
Two things ... 1. The Ossetians have been making a living smuggling weapons and uranium for Russia. 2. They want independence from Georgia, and Russia pretty much declared their unwavering support for that cause by issuing passports to most South Ossetian residents. The Ossetians are the small fish here. Their goal is really independence from Georgia, but in pursuing that they've pretty much become dependent on Russia to the point that they're pretty much in Russia's control now, and coming under Russian rule almost seems like an inevitability.
glynch, in my opinion, you are buying what the Soviets, uh, I mean the Russians are selling. Lies. The Georgian government was provoked into doing enough that Putin could send in his columns of tanks and tens of thousands of troops, his warplanes, his navy and declare that he was invading Iraq, uh, I mean Georgia, in order to provide "peace." Impeach Bush/Cheney.
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information of disinformation? With Russian troops nearby why would anyone shoot at journalist? What's to be gained? Other than stealing their stuff, that could happen.
By the way I think your mindset of equating present day Russia as being " Soviet" is why you are so trusting of the prevailing American press. Initial reports were that the Georgians killed a lot of Ossetians. This was in the US press, granted in the middle of the initial stories. There now appears an exaggeration on how many were killed. However, the press has become much more one sided since the initial stories. I don't know where I would have gotten Russian lies from. Now whether the Russians skillfully provoked the innocent Georgians into attacking or the hothead in Georgia got out of control is I think up to interpretation. Perhaps the Georgians were out to provoke an over reaction from the Russians-- with encouragement from the neo-cons in the Whtiehouse. An October surprise in August? As far as the Ossetians, apparently there is a long history of Georgians mistreating (to put it kindly) the Ossetians and so it was natural that on the fall of the Soviet Union they wanted to be free from Georgian control. Did the Russians feed this animosity the way we do with potential break-a- way minority groups throughout the world, if we don't like the country they are trying to break away from? Yes, of course.
