Deckard, first it is good to see the pretty balanced coverage of the BBS. I wish our media would just admit when at times what they have seen is controlled by US troops. I wonder if the BBC would do that if it Britain was involved in the fight. Overall I think it is good to see Russia get back on its feet. I think the most dangerous period was when they were so broke they were not paying the troops and there was the greater danger of somebody selling some nukes or advanced weapons to terrorists. I think that once Russia feels more prosperous they will gradually liberalize again and this time it will be more enduring. I doubt it will be the ideological capitalism of the Reaganites, but it will be more of a social democracy. I think the more balanced point of view of how to deal with Russia is what you see in France, Germany. I don't think they are taking their position just because of energy dependence on Russia. They are just more moderate than the neo-cons who have great sway in the US. Thankfully we are not committed by treaty to go to war over South Ossetia.
Gorbachev: Georgia started conflict in S. Ossetia (CNN) -- Georgian leaders may be blaming Russia for the conflict raging in South Ossetia, but former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev said Thursday "there is no doubt" that Georgia provoked the clash. Gorbachev told CNN's Larry King that Russia moved additional forces into South Ossetia in response to "devastation" in the South Ossetia city of Tskhinvali. "This was the use of sophisticated weapons against a small town, against a sleeping people. This was a barbaric assault," said Gorbachev, the last president of the former Soviet Union. But Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who also appeared on CNN's "Larry King Live" Thursday, said he was "profoundly shocked" that Mikhail Gorbachev would use a television appearance "for basically vindicating lies and deceptions." Last week, Georgia said it launched an operation into South Ossetia after a cease-fire was broken with artillery fire from Russian separatists that killed 10 people including civilians and peacekeepers. It accused Russia, which also has peacekeepers in the region, of backing the separatists. Hours later, the Russian news agency Interfax reported that Russian authorities said 10 Russian peacekeepers had been killed and 30 wounded in an attack by Georgians. "Western television didn't show what happened in Tskhinvali," Gorbachev said. "Only now they're beginning to show some pictures of the destruction. So this looks to me like it was a well-prepared project. And with any outcome, they wanted to put the blame on Russia." He called Georgia's claims that Russia is attempting to dismantle its democracy "all lies from beginning to end." In response, Saakashvili expressed disappointment with the sentiments from Gorbachev, who he said he once respected. "This is the man, Mr. Gorbachev, who helped to, you know, bring down KGB kingdom. And he is the one who is, you know, justifying what the KGB people are doing right now in my country," Saakashvili said. "Shame on him. Shame on you, Mr. Gorbachev, for perpetuating the very regime you helped to defeat and you fought against as the head of the Soviet Union." advertisement Gorbachev also said the United States is jeopardizing its fragile relationship with Russia by backing Georgia. Video Watch Gorbachev discuss U.S.-Russia relations ยป "There is a chance for our two countries to develop a new agenda for cooperation so as to promote both U.S. and Russia interests, and the interests of other countries, and the interests of stability, particularly in the hotspots in different continents," said Gorbachev, who won the Nobel Peace Price in 1990. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/gorbachev/index.html Is Gorbachev not telling the truth?
It is interesting to me that both Saakashvili, you, and whoever wrote this article don't really seem to remember that Gorbachev didn't intend the Soviet Union's borders to self-destruct and that he has been considered a failure in Russia for the last 20 years for allowing people like Georgia to become independent. His vision for what he intended never involved Georgian or Ukranian independence or any form of democracy. Just a little more openness and some economic reform to reinvigorate the power structures of the Commissars. He was always a Nikita Khrushchev disciple. You should read one of his biographies. He isn't exactly some enlightened disinterested pro-western pro-democracy Russian liberal third party interested in only the truth on this issue. If Russia reestablishes control over all the Soviet Block countries, it would salve the pain of what is percieved as his failed legacy quite a bit. Gorbachev talking here is a little bit like asking George Bush Sr. about whether his son's war on Iraq was justified.
Just because Gorbachev did not envision or initially set out to make all the changes that ultimately resulted from his initial steps does not mean that he has not embraced them. Aside from positing he couldn't have changed, what evidence do you have that Gorbachev yearns for the Soviet Empire he let go?
I think Georgia was baited into attacking South Osettia in a preconceived plan that worked out exactly as the Russian had hoped. Yes Saakashvilii is a reactionary who takes his military cues from Israel and his reprisal on South Oseetia was ill advised, overly destructive and undisciplined. But Russian 'peace keepers' were on station in South Ossetia right next to continued shelling by the separatist, essentially aiding and abetting. Not to react was to appear weak and endangered the Georgian people. If you do choose to act against the separatist, you know the Russians will respond so you only have a couple of hours to inflict maximum damage on what are essentially sanctioned terrorist. Then you are going to get punched back. Not a good plan but what are you going to do when you are threatened by a bully? just take it? You should never, ever take the word of the Kremlin at face value. They have over 60 years history of masterful disinformation campaigns. Russia is an authoritarian state with exactly the same command structure of any crime family. Any information from Moscow is as planned for effect as the Beijing Olympic propaganda but not as crudely executed.
Kudos for doing a better job saying much of what I was attempting to say, Dubious. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
Who is talking about accepting the "word of the Kremlin"? Georgia attacked first. Nothing much has changed since an accord was signed in 1991 between Ossetia and Georgia. Georgia attacked, Russia reacted and overreacted a bit-- not as muich as Israel with 35 days of bombing of Lebanon. No need to go all Cold War Russkies out to get us. Nice move to declare all Ossetians "terrorists". I guess you would demand US intervention as necessary for the "Global War on Terror". What is interesting is to see the faith in the neo-con/ militaristic world view, become discreditted wrt to Iraq, However, once an issue concerning Russia arises the unquestioned faith in the mainstream media and old militarism world view return seemingly undiminished.
I almost italicized the 'terrorist' because I certainly meant as dysphemistic to illustrate the Gerogian point of view. I certainly don't know who the the South Ossetian separatist are, what their grievances are, if they are at all legitimate representatives of the will of the people since their was no vote, nor widely publicized editorialization or free assembly calling for referendums on separation. My suspicion is that the people of non Georgian, primarily Russian, decent within the region are being guided by Kremlin operatives and local strongmen along the path that suits the Russian interest. I think the desire to regain international potency lost over the Kosovo issue has a lot more to do with this crisis than any actual descrimination against Russians living within Georgia. As to whom attacked whom first, it is well documented that Separatist were raining harassing fire into Georgia with the complicit approval of the Russian peace keepers within Georgia's Ossetian borders. I would call that the initial provocation. Saakashvili just somehow thought he was Israel fighting Hamas and blundered in underestimating the Russian response. If you don't believe this was planned then why did the cyber attacks on Georgia's propaganda machine begin before the Georgian incursion in to Osstia, and why were Russian troops en massed at the border logistically prepared to invade Georgia and occupy it for an undetermined period. You don't just move in that kind of combat power overnight.
glynch, I'm sure I'm sounding like an old "JFK Cold Warrior" here, but I sincerely believe that this entire crisis was deliberately cooked up by Putin and that Georgia was provoked. Absent any kind of attack by Georgia on their own territory, it is my opinion that an incident would have been staged. What Dubious posted below, IMO, is pretty close to the mark. (and I agree that this has been a pretty good discussion by all concerned, which is a nice change) Impeach Bush/Cheney.
I missed the Saddleback forum but I'm listening to a rebroadcast now and just heard John McCain's comments on Georgia and frankly his comments have me worried. What particularly has me worried is talking about how Georgia was one of the first Christian nations and playing up the conflict almost in tones of a religious war. At the moment I don't think religion or lack of has anything to do with this conflict since my understanding is both Georgia and Russia are officially atheistic while historically both are Orthodox Christian. When McCain starts saber rattling and putting this in terms of religion that's got me worried.
The idea is to make Christians close ranks. Nothing solidifies power behind a leader than to demonize an outside threat. I bet whichever little Rove b*stard baby that came up with this talking point got an instantaneous boner.
I have a question....didn't want to start another thread... Why is it that the U.S is building a missile system in Poland? If Russia built one in Cuba or Venezuela we would have WWIII.... Just wondering how can the U.S be a leader of future peace with this kind of mind set. Doesn't this just make things worse....
It's an antimissile system. Sort of like AAA, but for balistic missiles. The Patriot anti-aircraft missles that the Polish required as a tie-in are a greater threat to the Russians.
i think i know how that georgian president guy is going to die http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17332541/ http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1071434.html i dont know much about russia but i know enough to not want to EVER f*k with them DONT MESS WITH TRU GANGSTAS! i would take anything bad i said about putin or russia back i dont want kgb after me
Otto does it really matter if it's an anti missile system? Again, if Russia did the same thing in Cuba or Venezuela, I can bet you there would be fireworks. Would there not? Good defense makes for a winning strategy!
You don't think there are Russian made long range AAA missles in Cuba? I just found two or three SAM sites along the north coast of Cuba pointed at the USA in like 3 minutes looking on Google Earth. And yes, it really does matter what they are. Saying there is no difference is like saying that there is no difference between being shot at with a slingshot or an RPG or machine gun. ICBM's with nuclear warheads can eliminate half the population of a country in a second. Small balistic missles with kinetic warheads can maybe crush a car. As far as defensive vs. offensive weapons, read the quotes from when the Russians sold their top of the line SAM's to Iran about 2 years ago. If defensive weapons are perfectly legal and every country's absolute right then, what changed between then and now?
Google Earth is your source? You sure those are long range AAA missles you see? Otto my point was that regardless of what is being placed in Poland it just raises tensions within the region. (The U.S should be leading by example, this isn't the right example....that's all I'm saying) It's a military base in a foreign country.... Again, it's a foreign country setting up shop.....selling/buying is different.
The problem is, if you're Russia, and the US says that they are entirely defensive, why do you believe them? You have no way to verify the purpose of the missiles. And they are being placed something like 150 miles from your border. The US wouldn't welcome a Russia-Mexico missile agreement either.
