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George Floyd Murder Trial

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rocketsjudoka, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. NotInMyHouse

    NotInMyHouse Contributing Member

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    I am not coming at you. I’m just answering the question that you posed. It seems like a daily occurrence that authority shows its ass to the country by way of overstepping itself. I’ve lost respect.
     
  2. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    Did Philando Castille comply? The video is insufficient to tell either way. According to the officer, he was reaching for his gun (supported by the audio of the officer saying, "Don't reach for it, stop! stop!") According to his girlfriend, he did comply. As both witnesses are interested parties, neither have any particular credibility issues, and there isn't sufficient evidence to prove one story over the other, I would say it is inconclusive.

    What we do know is that compliance, if not a guarantee that no harm will come to you, increases the odds of that being the case exponentially. The police shoot 1000 people or so to death every year, and just about all of them are non-compliant (to say the least). The police have 50,000,000 adversarial encounters every year, 49 million plus have compliant civilians and nothing bad happens. I would say compliance is the way to go.
     
  3. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Why would someone who does the proper procedure of telling a officer that he has a firearm that is properly registered reach for a weapon?

    That is usually an indication that the Individual is willing to comply and wants a safe and easy interaction with the officer.
     
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  4. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    @pgabriel
     
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  5. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    I think this has been underreported and not known by a lot of people.

    I think most people believe he was resisting the entire time.

    I have yet to see why they took him down in the 1st place after they took him out of the vehicle.
     
  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    WTF dude.

    You are so hell bent on debating everything that you continue to distort the facts of everything.

    The video is not insufficient he told the officer he had a gun and he told he would have to get it out to give the officer what he wanted.

    There is an actual video and you can actually here what was being said.

    Philando was compliant point blank if he did not comply to officers commands he would not have been reaching toward a gun to get what the officer asked for.

    Why do you continue to twist the facts of an incident to try and prove a nonsensical point just like you claiming There was a pic in the MPD training manual that Chauvin kneeling on his neck was a training point.

    Why do you continue to obfuscate facts and inject falsehoods into every argument you make?
     
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  7. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    From what I remember is that Castille tells Yanez that he has a licensed firearm, Yanez tells him not to reach for it but at some point had also asked for Castille's license and registration. The evidence appears that he was reaching for those rather than his firearm and from what I remember the defense didn't contest that just that Yanez misinterpreted his actions.
    Certainly compliance is the best course of action for lawful orders but again as shown LEO still have to act with a standard of care and although rare there are instances where someone complies and is still killed.
     
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  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    He was not his neck and I don't understand why you have to inject that in to make a point the incident is horrific enough.

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/...m-as-chauvin-knelt-on-his-back-for-17-minutes

    The court document describes footage in which Chauvin talked to the mother for about 36 minutes before he went to look for her son. He then found the 14-year-old son lying on the floor in his bedroom looking at his phone. Chauvin and another officer told him to stand up because he was under arrest. The boy refused and added that his mother was drunk and assaulted him.

    The court filing says the child tried to talk with officers about his mother, but they yelled at him to stand up. The officers quickly grabbed him and Chauvin hit the child in the head with his flashlight.

    Two seconds later, Chauvin grabbed the boy’s throat and struck him again in the head with the flashlight.

    “The child cried out that they were hurting him, and to stop, and called out ‘mom,’” according to the filing.

    Chauvin applied a neck restraint, causing the child to temporarily pass out and fall to the ground. The officers placed him in the prone position and handcuffed him behind his back while his mother pleaded with the officers not to kill her son and told her son to stop resisting.

    “About a minute after going to the ground, the child began repeatedly telling the officers that he could not breathe, and his mother told Chauvin to take his knee off her son,” prosecutors wrote. They added that the mother asked Chauvin to take his knee off her son four times because her son couldn’t breathe, but that Chauvin maintained his position and replied that her son, who Chauvin described as 6 feet, 2 inches tall and at least 240 pounds, was “a big guy.”
     
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    I don't know, let's see.
    I don't debate the vast majority of threads, actually. I make comments as and when I choose. I also use only the facts as they appear. I believe it was actually you that was caught distorting facts in the Toledo shooting thread when you said he dropped the gun three seconds before he was shot, despite being shown time stamped screenshots proving that was false.
    What did the officer say?
    I know, I referenced it. Specifically, I made reference to what the officer said immediately before shooting. Did you catch that part?
    If he was compliant when the officer said, "Don't reach for it then. Don't pull it out. don't pull it out." why would the officer continue saying don't pull it out and then shoot him and then say, "I told him not to reach for it I told him to get his hand out."
    There is a pic in the MPD training manual of an officer kneeling on a suspects neck. It was entered into evidence. I think it was even used in closing argument.
    MPD training materials show knee-to-neck restraint similar to the one used on Floyd (msn.com)
    Why do you claim things are lies that are so easily proved true?
    Can you give one example. I think not.
    All that can be true, and he still could be failing to comply with Officer Yanez's last order.
    Here is the video, the orders in question are at around 28 seconds. Clearly, Officer Yanez did not interpret Castille as complying, given his tone and repeating order.

    There are instances when a meteor falls out of the sky and kills someone, but they are irrelevant for any discussion of living day to day life or how one should react in any given situation. The fact is that compliance with a lawful order is both required under the law and essentially invariably a good idea. Bringing up instances where maybe complying might have resulted in being shot anyway in response to the proposition that compliance is the correct course of action is counter to good practice.
     
  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    You know you don't really say anything when you make these line by line refutations?

    Like you just regurgitate your premise while ignoring the points made.

    This is too much dedication in time for trolling dude.
     
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  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    My guess is if Chauvin had testified this would've come up. My guess is that prosecutors felt that bringing up Chauvin's past might've clouded things given that the Defense would've then brought up incidences where Chauvin had done the right thing and was cited for doing the right thing.

    The prosecutors clearly felt that just the facts of the incident with George Floyd was strong enough and the were very right.
     
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  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    Exactly.

    That's why I don't respond when he does that.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    We discussed this earlier that one pic doesn't always tell the whole story. If you're basing an argument on a single image then Jiggyfly is just as right to point to the single image of Adam Toleda with his hands up unarmed.
    In that very video you hear Philando Castille's girlfriend confirm that Yanez asked him to show his license. Yanez jumps to an assumption that Castille was going for his firearm and not that he was complying with his previous order to show his license.

    Castille is complying and it's Yanez's inability to clarify his order and to jump to lethal force in about a second rather than simply tell Castille to not move that leads to the shooting. And again this was not contested by the defense that Yanez had asked for the license.
    Except this isn't a meteor falling out the sky this is directly relevant to the discussion. While rare certainly if a case can be shown where a someone complied with an LEO's order and still died that is what we are discussing.

    And yes compliance is the best course of action. That doesn't excuse LEO actions as has been reaffirmed with the overwhelming verdict in the Chauvin trial.
     
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  15. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    I don't want to turn this into a debate on @StupidMoniker but he is directly responding to things in his line by line refutations. Obviously don't agree with most of them and counter them but as stated earlier in this particularly thread I was impressed by how closely his arguments matched the defense's well before they even brought them up.
     
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  16. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    I don't understand being impressed by arguments that were mocked by most experts and failed completely.

    But that's just me.;)
     
  17. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    I'm not making an argument either way, but just because someone says they have a properly registered weapon doesn't mean they arent a threat. Otherwise we wouldn't have as many mass shootings. That said, there is zero excuse for the officer.if

    The takeaway, which is completely independent of this incident, is carting around guns more often puts the carrier at more risk. As I get older, I am becoming more and more anti gun ownership.
     
  18. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    I disagree. I believe I address each point specifically. Just because I don't find the counterarguments compelling doesn't mean I am ignoring them.
    Context matters. If the claim is that a single image doesn't exist, providing that image is certainly enough to refute the point. Adam Toledo was shot with his hands up. No one is denying that. If that was the point @jiggylfly was raising, I would grant it, not argue that it didn't happen.
    I don't disagree.
    If a cop says, "Don't reach for it. Don't pull it out. DON'T PULL IT OUT!" that might be a clue that he thinks you are reaching for your gun that you just mentioned and that you should stop moving and show your empty hands.
    Fair enough.
    Non-compliance does allow for increased force by the officer. There are certainly limits, but non-compliance is not simply bad manners it leads to negative outcomes. As a counter example, look at Jacob Blake. The officer in that case is not being charged for shooting and paralyzing Blake, because his non-compliance represented a danger. I think we are in agreement generally though. Just do what the cop says. On the street at gunpoint is not the place to fight your case.
     
    #978 StupidMoniker, Apr 28, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
  19. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Of course context matters and that was why bringing up the image from the MPD training manually doesn't make argument when MPD training also said not to put it on for an extended period of time. At the risk of speaking for @jiggyfly as we're not exactly on the same side regarding the Toledo shooting, his point is that Toledo wasn't armed and that the LEO should've seen that. The image of Toledo with his arms up unarmed is a very strong piece of evidence to support that. That image doesn't tell the whole story so I find it ironic that you're criticizing him for that while still defending the use of single image here.
    Could it also be that the instructions are conflicting and not clear? As you state there are two witnesses who have built in biases yet neither disagree that two orders were given. Watching the video from the moment that Yanez says "Don't reach for it" to when he shoots is about 2 seconds. Now I agree two seconds is more than a split second but in a situation where Castille might've already started to reach for his license when Yanez gives the order to "Don't reach for it" might not be that much time especially when Yanez draws his own firearm in less than a second possibly startling Castille.

    Anyway we can see in the video where he is lying shot bleeding he doesn't have his hand on a firearm which if he had been pulling one out at the time of getting shot we would likely see.
    Of course and I don't think anyone is encouraging people to not cooperate with LEO. The problem with this argument is that it puts all of the onus on the "suspect" and excuses the LEO. Given the disproportionate amount of power in any encounter LEO need to be held accountable. As the cliche goes "with great power comes great responsibility" and that applies to LEO too.
     
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  20. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    This guy has the nerve to talk about a compelling argument.

    [​IMG]
     

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