We all need help, yes. But is controlling really helping? Does it transform at a fundamental level? Do you make wrong or right decisions on the basis of knowledge or fear of punishment? I see laws as a way to help run and protect a society, not control it. You can not outlaw immorality. We would all be in jail. True change and peace come at a personal level that no laws and control can create.
What is god made of exactly? What are you? Are you saying there is no link between the creator and the created? How is this possible? Name one instance. If we come from god, how are we not made from god? If god is a part your consciousness, and you his, how is god not a part of you, and you a part of god?
just because i didn't read every word he wrote doesn't mean i failed to comprehend something. thanks for calling me out with your weak ass cliche. my bad for jumping to the conclusion that he' from texas, but frankly, it doesn't matter where he's from as it's a place that i don't want to be.
So you admit that you think it's OK for governments to MURDER people for having SEX? I'm glad you're over there in the Middle East and not here.
andymoon - Actually, the "educated" felt the earth was round, but had no way to truly prove it until Columbus, Vespucci, Magellan, etc. You're basing your beliefs on a high school textbook. Muslim scholars believed the earth was round, as did many scholars in Europe (why else would Columbus say he wanted to go the other way to India?). Finally, please keep in mind that there are differences in opinion in Islam as there are in Christianity, Judaism, etc. What Sane is saying regarding homosexuality is not believed by all Muslims. It's probably true of most Muslims (the way most Christians believe homosexuality is a sin), but I for one agree with the personal belief part. It's not up to us to judge. It's certainly not up to us to kill someone based on sex. It's certainly not up to us to disown a child based on sex. It's certainly not up to us to deny a couple a chance to love publicly. It's certainly not up to us to deny a child the right to friends because of his/her parents' actions. But, of course, this is up for debate not only in Islam and the Middle East, but in Christianity and the culture at large here in the USA. The question ultimately comes down to whether you believe your role is to "uphold" God's will or allow God to do it Himself. That's what I think. I'd rather leave it to God as I have no idea what he's planning... especially after noting the chaos that is the state of the world today.
I've got news for you, Sane... the Pope condemned Galileo in the 17th century because he said the earth revolved around the sun. So, yes, I would like to "bet against them again," because up until the 17th century, they were WRONG. I'm not saying having divorced parents is insignificant... I'm just saying that it doesn't make you gay. Since your parents are divorced, you should know. And it's not "a fact that some people turn gay from it." That's your own speculation. What I'm saying is that I know plenty of people with absolutely nothing awful in their past that would make them gay, and I know plenty of people whose parents are divorced who are not gay. BTW... You still haven't answered my point about all this "majority" stuff. You say that "more people think being gay is wrong than people who don't" and then you offer that up as evidence that supporters of gays are wrong. Well, I have said that more people believe in Christianity (33%) than in Islam (20%), so I offer that up as proof that you are wrong. Unless, of course, you'd like to drop all this nonsense about the majority always being right?
- There is a lot of research that shows they are, and there is a lot that shows they aren't. - Muslims didn't think the earth was round, and I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't think so. Whether Christians did or not is something I'd have to look up, but it says in the Bible that the earth is round. - It's not learned behavior. For each research you show me that says it's biological, I will show you one that says it is learned. - I don't need your acceptance to be a father, and you are not the judge of whether I am a good one or not. Your boy outlaw wants his children running around with the children of drug dealers, and I'm the bad father? Please, spare me. - What you do with your son is your business. If you wipe you ass with tissue paper, I don't have to do the same. I like to use water. - Divorce rates are massive, but the percentage of gays is not flat. You don't even need a research for this. Are you saying that, percentage-wise, there were as many gay people 10 years ago as there are today? It just doesn't make sense. - I discrimante against gays, you discriminate against people who ban drugs. You have your opinion, I have mine. - I think that control is necessary in everyone's life. It's awfully nice of you twist my words into looking like I meant people should be forced into unhappy marriages though. If being gay is not biological, then you don't have to be in a same-sex marriage to be happy with it. Don't act like it's not an if, because it is an if.. a very big IF.
- They are anologous according to my beliefs. Are you going to change my religion? - Show me these numbers. Regardless of whether or not the numbers are the same, these people deserve to be punished if caught. When you are worried abotu dying, you won't spread your "homosexual ideas" to everyone. When you are allowed to, you will begin spreading the message, and the growth becomes more rapid. In a nutshell, IFFFFFFFFFFF the numbers are the same, it would still be best to punish them. - First of all, we've established in this thread that a sample doesn't represent the population in this case. Second of all, in this day and age, if I was gay, I wouldn't say I had a traumatic experience, because the more that gets out the less the chances of me getting my rights. Because if people begin to think that being gay is learned and not biological, then gays will not be accepted in society the same way.
If you want to get into THIS, I suggest you start a new thread, because it's a whole other issue. I know what God is. God created me, you and everything else in the world. You want me to name one instance? There's a QUOTE in the Qura'an. How's that for an instance? If I create a blender, how is it made from me? It's quite arrogant of you to think that you are a part of God's consciousness or that you are a part of God, or even worse, God is a part of you. Who created you Mr. Meowgi?
Funny how you use the words Murder and Sex. To be extremely clear: I think it's ok for an Islamic country to follow Islamic Sharia'a and execute a person who commits a major sin. But this leaves room for other things. Like some sort of reform or rehab. But if all else fails, then I can't see what else can be done. It's the law, it's the religious law. You can't change Islam. You can't change the Qura'an. Incidentally, are there any non-Muslim countries that execute people for homsexuality?
You make some good points. But here are some of my own: - Disowning a child is my decision and my failure. How can I support a child who disrespects what God says? Why do you have children? Ther eare several reasons, but the main reason for me is to please God. There is the happiness, there is the loving... But for me, the main reason is for God. So if I have done everything in my power to keep this child on the right path, and he strays, then I will take whatever responsibility for this child in the afterlife, and dissassociate myself with him/her in this life. - To kill someone based on homosexuality is not up for debate. It's a rule, a law. - To love the same sex publicly is a sin. - To deny a kid his/her friends, that's a choice. That's my choice, because I want what's best for my child. In Islam, certain things are taken care of now, and certain things later. That's what it says, there's no debating it. Just wanted to make those points clear because most of what I'm saying is from Islam, and not my personal opinion of some sort. Islam is my choice, but following the rules strictly is a must.
I don't want to derail this thread... so I won't respond to anything after this. I just want to reiterate the point that there are Muslims out there who do not believe as you do. The interpretation of scripture and determination of rules in other sects/denominations of Islam are not the same as that of yours. Thus, there is debate. It may be a minority, but it does exist. The same is true in Christianity, obviously.
I haven't been in this forum for a couple weeks until a get a reported post about this thread. Unfortunately, this thread is what is often so wrong about the D&D. A simple, thoughtful discussion turned into a argument over what each poster believes to be right or wrong and an eventual downward spiral into people being offended and angry. Sigh.
Here's the countries who currently have the death penalty for homosexuality and all are Muslim. http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/world.htm Mauritania Nigeria (northen Muslim area) Sudan Afghanistan (even now) Pakistan Iran Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirites Yemen
Lil Pun -- you asked me a question a while back. the problem with the strict laws of Leviticus is EXACTLY what you're seeing here. Jesus came and talked specifically about how harsh it was to adhere to this kick ass law. That no amount of law abiding could make you pure enough for God, though living your own life to the law should be a goal. Christ ultimately said, "here are the big two commandments: 1. love God with all your heart, soul and mind; 2. love your neighbor as you love yourself." Christ addressed the heart...he talked about these regulations that created this pious class of folks who didn't love anyone. Who never showed compassion. Who never showed grace. And then Christ poured out compassion and grace on those whom society held in the lowest esteem. I encourage you to spend some time reading the Bible if you're interested. Read through the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). By the way...I'm reminded of a part of the bible where the disciples ask Jesus how many times they should forgive someone who does them wrong. They ask him, "as many as seven times???" He looks at them and says, "seventy-seven times."
I'm sorry, but some things are up for debate, some are not. For example, pre-marital sex is a sin. That applies to all sects. Homosexuality, similarly, is a sin. The only related thing that's up for debate is anal sex with a woman, which is considered minor homosexuality. However, homosexuality is not interpreted any differently than I'm saying - it's a major sin and punishable by sharia'a law very clearly. The story of Loot shows this very clearly. I don't want to derail this thread more than it's already been either (sorry Lil Pun), but just had to point that out.
It's not another issue. It is all connected. "If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper._ Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper._ The cloud is essential for the paper to exist._ If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either._ So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are._ If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it._ Without sunshine, the forest cannot grow._ In fact, nothing can grow without sunshine._ And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper._ The paper and the sunshine inter-are._ And if we continue to look, we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper._ And we see wheat._ We know that the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper._ The logger's father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way, we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist. Looking even more deeply, we can see ourselves in this sheet of paper too._ This is not difficult to see because when we look at a sheet of paper, it is part of our perception._ Your mind is here and mine is also._ So we can say that everything is in here with this sheet of paper._ We cannot point out one thing that is not here - time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat._ Everything co-exists within this sheet of paper._ That is why I think the word "inter-be" should be in the dictionary._ "To be" is to inter-be._ We cannot just be by ourselves alone._ We have to inter-be with every other thing._ This sheet of paper is, because everything else is. Suppose we try to return one of the elements to its source._ Suppose we return the sunshine to the sun._ Do you think this sheet of paper will be possible?_ No, without sunshine nothing else can be._ And if we return the logger to his mother, then we have no sheet of paper either._ The fact is that this sheet of paper is made up only of "non-paper" elements._ And if we return these non-paper elements to their sources, then there can be no paper at all._ Without non-paper elements - like mind, logger, sunshine and so on - there will be no paper._ As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the universe in it." The blender would not exist without you.That is how it is made from you. Who made me? Cause and effect. I exist becasue the condintions are present for me to manifest. When those conditions no longer exist, netiher will "I". The same holds true for the rest of the universe. We are all a part of everything else.
