If I didnt have them, i would say so, but I have rocket games from 80's. I'm not a johnny come lately,yao-ming mania fan like yourself. Say what you want, one guy is playing well on a ring team and the other is a fashion model. What you missed with your blinders and earmuffs on is i never said who was better. All i did was describe he strong points and weak points of both. I got into thid internet discussion wih you because of the 5 sec video you posted talking about double teams. I said you wouldn't know what a double team looked like if draped on the naked body of halle berry.
Thank goodness, I almost never post that way, although I admire the ability of those who type well enough to "whip them out," and/or have the energy. It's just not my style. You have to wade through my stuff and hope there was something worth reading in there (somewhere), I guess.
I have what are called reading comphrehension and reading-between-the-lines, two skills which you seem to lack. For the discussion to be limited to Yao and Gasol's skills like what you keep on saying a disclaimer must first be made: Gasol IS Better than Yao. After that's established, then maybe you can about if skillwise Yao is better than Gasol. Show me where wnes and entropy admit that fact? Wnes certainly spent a lot of time writing about Gasol's playoff failures, while Entropy had this to say about gasol: Does it look like they're acknowledging Gasol is better than Yao? Get them to admit that fact first, THEN you can talk about how Yao Ming might be more skilled than Gasol. Not a fan of personal insults, you say? The thing that cracks me up is aren't you the genius who made this statement? As if better doesn't include being more healthy. Then you got owned when the other posters posted this definition of the word "better": Before you start questioning other people's intellect you might want to start reading a dictionary first, because apparently you don't know what words mean.
This actually made me laugh, kudos to you. You act like it's a proven fact that Gasol is better than Yao, and anybody who disagrees is an obvious YOF with a broken logic box. The entire point of this thread was to discuss why one thinks the other is better, hence the "?" at the end of the title and the entire opening post which you seem to conveniently ignore, again and again you reading comprehending fiend you. Wnes wrote about Gasol's playoff failures because it was a factor that hadn't been delved into. Hence, DISCUSSION. You've been pulling that same injury card with nearly every post you've made, but there's NOTHING LEFT TO SAY ABOUT IT. I'm not sure how clear I can make this, but hopefully the caps will help you comprehend, my friend. Speaking of health: I never said they acknowledged that Gasol is better than Yao, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I simply said that they acknowledged Yao's disadvantage in health. But, hold on now. Get them to admit that Gasol is better than Yao, and THEN they can talk about why Yao is better? Your logic astounds me. That says something about this thread then, doesn't it? Posting well-thought out responses doesn't seem to do anything, as you'll undoubtedly, albeit unknowingly, attest to with your reply. Come come now Mr. Reading Comprehension, you apparently missed my reply to that post. Unless, of course, you think that a single word should simultaneously provide all five of its definitions. That isn't too far-fetched, now that I think about it. You did equate the subjunctive mood with a "subjective mood laced with indignation", lol.
I act like it because its true: anybody who thinks Yao Ming is better than Gasol really is an obvious YOF with a broken logic box. You know why? Because of injury, you silly boy you. Whatever counter argument or point you can up that goes to Yao Ming's favor fails in the face of this rather insurmountable flaw in our favorite 7'6 center. I keep bringing the injury card because you yof homers keep ignoring it. Just because its been pointed out ad nausem doesn't make it any more irrelevant. What you're saying is just because everyone and mother knows that Yao Ming is Mr. Glass, that point suddenly becomes irrelevant? If you're evaluating players then obviously health is the most important factor to take into consideration. Even if Yao Ming is more skilled than Gasol because he can't stay on the court his skills are rendered useless. That's because they keep using the magical word "if". To quote Entropy: Obviously Yao Ming isn't back and he isn't healthy, so that means the reality is Gasol is better than Yao Ming. But in some bizzarro world where Yao Ming was actually healthy, maybe Yao is better than Gasol. That's what this thread is trying to do. The logic really is screwy, but the one who came up with it is Entropy and not me. No I don't. However when Obama and Doug Collins called Gasol the "best big man in the league" they were referring to Gasol's to the totality of qualities and not just his skills. You know why? Because they called him the best big man, and not the most skilled big man. You were trying to limit the word "best" to mean only skills, when the truth is the best here applies to Gasol and Yao's entire value as a player, health included.
Before anything else, props on the originality. Since you've demonstrated an uncanny ability to consistently make assumptions, let me clear up that YOF term you love to throw around oh so much. Did you ever wonder what it meant? Yao Only Fan. Someone who is only a "fan" of the Rockets because of Yao Ming. You've seemed to mutate that term into an all-encompassing one describing anybody who disagrees with you in this thread, or anyone of Chinese descent for that matter. But yes, Yao Ming will forever be at a crippling disadvantage because of his injury. There is absolutely no chance of a full recovery. His insurmountable flaw isn't currently an unknown or anything, right? He isn't rehabbing or set to return next season, right? And your incredible foresight allows you to know that Yao will, without a doubt, be injured again and Pau will never suffer another injury. I'll go ahead and refer you to my previous post, where I quoted our "yof homers ignoring his injuries." You know what? I'll just repost that part since you seemed to absorb none of it. I understand that you're probably busy "reading between the lines", so it's forgivable. It's a valid point, yes, and it has been acknowledged. Would it make you feel better if we all preceded our posts with "WARNING: THIS IS ASSUMING YAO IS HEALTHY"? The bizzarro world that is possibly a few months from now? I'm glad you've finally acknowledged the point of the thread and, consequently, your massive derailment of it. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing the meaning of the statement made by Obama and Collins, I fully acknowledge that they meant Gasol as an overall big man and I might even be inclined to agree with them. But, as you have acknowledged, the OP clearly stated the "if healthy" condition. I believe I have already addressed this, but I guess your incredible reading comprehension somehow overlooked it.
Evene when healthy which is a big if, coaches and gm's would probably be split over the 2 as a number 2. Neither are number 1's and have never been #1 option at any point in their careers. They don't have the mentality to be that dude every game and in the playoffs. Its more than talent and skill for the makeup of a 31 option type player. To me, Gasol just gives the team more options. Not saying he is better or worse, he just gives the team more flexibility offensively and defensively. When dealing with yao, you have to play 1 way offensively and 1 way defensively. Offensively, he's not a quick thinker and he's really slow. So the team has to play a slow down,grind it out game all the time. Its hard to displace him in the high post and open the baseline because he doesn't read passing angles well nor is he a threat to put the ball on the floor. He's a really good shooter from mid range once he makes his mind up to do it. He's also a small area rebounder. This means no leaking out by other player to start the break. This stalls the break somewhat also. Also since he is so slow, plays take longer to develop with him which also bring his stamina into the situation. Defensively, he's a really good post player. His size alone makes it hard for any player to post him up. His size also makes him a liability in space. Thats not uncommon for any center to have trouble in space vs a guard unless your name is hakeem,robinson,or mourning, but his problems mostly occur when he gets inbetween and have his hands down. He can become a better player in space, but it hasn't happened and probably wont by now. Also, there can't be any trapping by the team he plays on. This isn't a deal breaker by no means. I'm just saying that some teams like to trap to change tempo or energy of the game. When you have yao, thats out the window. These are factors and some huge whn coaches might pick who is the best big in the game. The space thing gets you killed in pick and roll late in game or when teams need a basket. The slow down, grind it out, keeps the teams in the bottom half offensively all the time.With pau, you don't have these limitations offensively or defensively. In memphis and now in La they are a top defensive team. Offensively in the triangle, he fits like a glove with very few if any mods to the offense. People want to say plug in yao and it will be the same since he has kobe and i disagree. Watch the games with the movement, the passes, and the fluidity in which they execute the offense. The triangle and the offense adelman runs are very,very similar and thats another thread for another day. Jackson modified the triangle for shaq because he could get quick position and make a quick move, plus he was a great, not good, great and dominant player. I doubt jackson would modify the offense for just good in yao. Gasol is in the same positions as longley,cartwright,williamss and the other who played in the offense, but he's just much better pffensively than those guy. Kobe isn't known as the most patient man either. Overrall, its just preference.
The point at which you got into the debate (between me and the other poster) made no doubt that you were defending his argument. I give you that Gasol has been able to be healthy when his teams made it to the playoffs. However, leaving his 0-12 playoff record with Memphis aside, by-playoff-healthy Gasol couldn't even carry his team to the playoffs 50% of the times. In his 6 1/2 regular seasons with Memphis, Gasol amassed a measly 202-274 record (winning percentage 42%). In contrast, Yao regular season record is 283-198 (winning percentage 59%). I agree with those who said that Gasol and Yao are similar skill-wise. I would also like to point out Gasol was as skillful in Memphis then as he is with LA now. Comparing his records with the two teams, the benefits and advantages of Gasol playing with some of the most competitive teammates in the game and under the winningest coach cannot be overstressed. As someone has mentioned earlier in this thread, one cannot be the best big man by simply changing the jersey. Your analogy doesn't work because it contradicts to what you have been trying to infer. According to you a garbage collector is more dignified ("10x better") than a beggar, but it shouldn't take a genius to figure that between Yao and Gasol, who "has to depend on other people for his very own survival" and who had to beg his way out of the franchise that drafted him? LOL ... epic. This takes the cake. I think poster cuddie has done a marvelous job in his various rebuttals of your "point." I'll simply add this. Let's say someone start a thread soliciting discussions of who is the better big man between Yao and Gasol, under the assumption that Gasol's history with Memphis never existed. It would be idiotic for me to bring up Gasol's records at Grizzles in all those years into the debate and press others to accept it as the condition. Either play along or leave it alone. KG-led team was at least able to win games and make those series competitive. Same thing can't be said about Gasol's Grizzles. Boozer and Okur were starters and both were All-Stars. Playing your race card game, I can understand your penchant for Gasol is due to influence of Spanish colonization on Filipinos. It works both way, dude. Remember the garbage collector is not supposed to depend on others to survive.
You mean 2005-06 when they finished 2nd overall in defensive efficiency under Fratello, or merely 04-05 when they finished 5th?
wnes, can u say with a straight face that yao has led any rockets team to the playoffs? I guess the argument u would have is last year, i will give u that. When francis was here it was francis leading the team and every year tracy was here, he was 2nd fiddle or are u going to fight me on that? As sam fisher pointed out, once hubie took over and tthen fratello came in after him, the grizz were a top defensive team.
He is big. Humongus and that gives the illusion that he is good on defense. The fact is he is to slow as a individual defender, gets killed of the pick& roll and has very slow anticipation.
"With pau, you don't have these limitations offensively or defensively. In memphis and now in La they are a top defensive team." It doesn't look like year and coach matter in his assessment of Gasol's impact on team's defense, does it? Nonetheless, here is the complete ranking for Gasol's Grizzlies and Yao's Rockets, based on Hollinger's team defensive efficiency measures going back to 2003. Code: ranking based on team def eff year Mem Hou 02-03 26 18 03-04 6 5 04-05 3 7 05-06 3 9 06-07 30 4 07-08 29 2 08-09 4
Leading the team in what way? If you want to talk about chest pumping, trash talking, and stuff like that, be my guest. What I am looking at is the win shares contributed by players. In 2002-03, Yao's rookie season, there is no question Francis was the top dog. But in the following year, during the regular season, Francis yielded to Yao quite significantly. Yao played 2nd fiddle to McGrady in 2004-05. They were both injured in 2005-06 and the team didn't make it to the playoffs, although Yao took over McGrady in win shares. In 2006-07, Yao played only 48 games and was 3rd in win shares behind Battier and McGrady. In 2007-08, Yao played 55 games and McGrady played 66 games. Yao led slightly over Battier in win shares, while McGrady was a distant 4th, even behind Scola. I am glad you know the story in 2008-09. Your backtracking came a bit too late.
Let me ask you a simple question and it has 0 to do with chest pumping or win shares, if mcgrady misses the same amount of games as yao during the last 3 yrs or so, o the rockets make the playoffs? Like i said, if you want to say yao led the tem to the playoffs in 08-09, i can give you that, but all the other years, he was 2nd fiddle and thats just the truth. The team struggled big time minus tracy in years prior and it wasn't until brooks came forward and artest trade that the team was able to win games minus mcgrady. They have alway been able to win games minus yao.The rockets get mcgrady and win 51,34,52 the next 3. In the 34 win season when yao played, they were 27-30 in his 57 games and 27-20 when mcgrady played. The nexy season, the rockets were 50-21 in mcgrady's 71 games and 32-16 when yao played. Next season they were 36-19 with yao playing and 46-20 when tracy played. Now you can talk win shares and go through all the other stats if you like, but all i know is teh rox could win as long as tracy played. He was and is a flawed player but he won games in the regular season.
Let me again ask you a simple question and maybe you answer or maybe you skate by it. Look at the history of the franchise and where they were prior. The rockets make a trade and get francis in 99. That year, they won 34 games. The next year, they won 45 games which at the time was the most wins by a tem to not make the playoffs. The next season, francis has the ear disease problems and injuries to a young team and they won 28 games. They win the lotto and get yao ming and win 43 games and the next year 45 and make the playoffs. So the rockets won 34,45,28,43,and 45 games by yao second season. Thats 3 yrs prior and then 2 with. Lets take that same sample size with pau. They won 8,22,23,23,28 with that same sample size. They get hubie brown and now they win 50,45,and 49 games. So obviously coaching does make some kind of difference and it was clear houston had more talent than the grizz. Francis was playing at an all star level prior to yao and rudy t was still coaching here. The grizz had sar and bibby, but coaching and franchise stability was poor.
Best quote out of the entire thread... Both guys are very good second options and are skilled offensively... Defense is where they differ and the biggest difference is mobility, Yao is not very mobile and has a very hard time defending quicker players. He's great with guarding players such as Shaq and Howard who use brute strength instead of mobility. Evidence is in last night game where Gasol came out and blocked Ray Allen's shot on the perimeter... Yao is not mobile enough to do that. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ufrj8t4BuI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ufrj8t4BuI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
Let's not forget that this dramatic turnaround also coincided with the arrival of Posey/Wells, and Battier/Gasol were still improving.
