Gang-Raped Victim in Saudi Arabia gets 90 Lashes, Some Rapists get 10 Months

I knew you couldn't resist the D & D. The pull of the Dark Side is too strong.

Not exactly. The goal of democracy is to foster individual responsibility among citizens for their government so the government has the consent of the governed. Democracy at its core doesn't preclude having a tyrannical government or one that tramples individual liberty as long as that came about through democratic means. For instance Athenian and Roman democracy's had the concept of dictator as someone who would assume power in a time of crisis.

Democracy is about personal responsibility so individuals do bear a responsibility for the government they elect. Further democracy is more than just voting. It is the willingness to abide by the rules of democractic society. If a government you don't agree with wins an election you are still obligated as a member of the democracy to participate in democratic society. If we didn't the concept of democracy would be undermined.

Not really sure what affirmative action or on camera gaffes have anything to do with this but going by this thread this post conflicts with points you've made in earlier posts in this thread. In an earlier post you said we shouldn't judge another society even though we feel that they are more primitive and we should respect the laws of that society. In the particular case you are arguing that the woman who is getting lashed should've known better and is being lawfully convicted under Saudi law and we should respect that. With those statements though aren't you lumping them into a group and saying that we shouldn't look at the individual but at the group? The woman is a member of Saudi society so you are asking us to judge the situation based on Saudi society and its laws rather than consider the individual and whether the individual should submit to a law that even you say is primitive.

 

It is like talking with a person from the Dark Ages......

That is backwards ass thinking that is below living in a trailer park.

If you like it so much, then hop your butt onto a plane and get out of this GLORIOUS country.

Go back to the stone age where men clubbed women on the head...and it was OK...

DD

 

It is their law, but that doesn't make it right. For a while legal slavery was the law in the U.S. that didn't make it right, and I would commend people from other nations who faulted the U.S. because of that law. I would not have said they should just respect our law.

To receive lashes for what she did is just plain unjust. I can respect that they don't want women in the car with the car. I don't agree with it, but I respect that. I do not respect lashing a woman 90 times because she was apparently blackmailed into getting into a car.

 

I would much rather have that than blood stained whipping posts.

 

Adeel just wants to move back to the stone age...

You know what, let them live in the dark ages, where it is about brute force, then let's just move in...take over the oil fields and say....hey sorry....BRUTE force wins.

Go back and club you a woman....everything will be ok....this is our oil now.

The strong get to make the rules, right Adeel? Only the ones in power.


DD

 

We - in a democratic society - have the death penalty. We also have draconian Rockefeller laws. We put merci-killers in jail, and those in pain who use drugs behind bars. We let child-molesters back into society, while sending a pot-smoker to 15 years in prison and thus ruin their lives and commit them to a life of likely futher criminal acts.

Here - is Saudi Society. A woman broke a law. Was it justified or not? We don't know. But their legal system determined it was not. Now she cries foul - and we jump to the conclusion that because Saudi Arabia is more "primiative" and we're biased from the news, that this woman is right and the gov't is wrong and brutal.

Now...this bothers me. Because the truth is.....no one knows the truth.

I once took a very hard stance against the CHinese gov't for shooting pilgrims. Even yourself was subdued in your reaction. You did not call the Chinese people barbaric, or primitive, or even unjust. And in that case, there was a video showing it.

So...how do you address this? Should there be consistency. Should we be calling our justice system barbaric? Or what about the fact that we live in a society where 1/4 of children live in poverty and can't read?

How is it that we can judge another society and thier laws, and see our selves as "more advanced"?????

Fact is, I'm not convinced we are. For all it' flaws in Saudi Society - and don't get me wrong - I stand against many of those practices and laws - I feel that we have no legitimate ground to stand as being superior.

As Gandhi once said when a reporter asked him, "What do you think of Western Civilization", his response was, "I think it's a good idea"


Oh, and you're right, i couldn't resist!!!! But this is it, just one thread. And then I'll be gone. I have to admit it is addictive..

 

Even if she broke the law and lied about the blackmail(a huge "if") the govt. is brutal. To punish the breaking of that kind of law with 90 lashes is brutal.

Again your logic isn't sound. By that logic runaway slaves in the U.S. should have accepted a lashing because they knew it was against the laws for them to run away. Who are we to interfere, right?

You are the one who cried about how bad PC had gotten when Allen made his racist maccaca comment. Now you are using PC logic to excuse lashing a woman for being in a car with someone.

 

None of that conflicts with democracy. Democracy doesn't mean that individual liberties are respected except that people get a vote on it. For that matter we as individuals in a democracy have a say in all of that. If we don't agree with those policies we can work politically to change those things.

You're right no one fully knows the truth, about anything. That said we live in a society that allows for free speech and in our society we are free to criticize them. Maybe if we lived in Saudi Arabia we might not be but we don't. In regard to whether we consider them primitive or not, there certainly is a point of cultural bias OTOH though what good is our value system if we aren't willing to express it. Its one thing if we say we should invade Saudi Arabia to make them change there laws as that would be forcing our values on them but we are certainly free and justified to express our dissaproval.

First off if you recall regarding that thread I wasn't refraining from criticizing the PRC out of respect but I was questioning the video itself which IMO seemed suspect. I will even agree that PRC has killed Tibetans and I will call that barbaric and even emphasized my own belief that the PRC occupation is wrong. That said as you say you took a very hard stance on the Chinese. So why give the Saudis the benefit of cultural sensitivity and not the Chinese?

Many of us who are criticizing Saudi Arabia do consider our justice system barbaric and exercise our political right to vote and lobby our politician in regard to things like the death penalty that we don't agree with. Just because we're not perfect doesn't mean we can't also state our dissaproval of other cultures.

 

People forget how many Muslims there really are in our world. A poster referred to terrorism as a "Muslim problem". I understand that terrorists are mainly Muslim these days but I wonder what the percentage really is. Even a tiny % of 1.3 B would seem like a lot.

 

So are you saying that if the majority feels it's ok, then it is just? Help me connect the dots here....I'm not sure I get what you are saying...

So if we don't fully know the truth, can we all accept that there is a probablity greater than 0 that anything judgement or perception we have may be false? I mean, isn't to call Saudia culture barbaric looking at it under a narrow lens - based on our own cultural values? Shouldn't we take a poll of Saudi men and women and see what they think? What if 80% of Saudi women say she deserved to get 90 lashes? Does that change anything in your mind? I think it has implications....

What if I asserted that perhaps your connection to CHinese culture was a source of your skepticism? How would you react to that? I took a hard stance on the PRC - not the Chinese. And I took a hard stance on those who posted a certain way.

I think the subjugation of women is wrong. That's my personal belief. What I question is what right we have to judge a culture. China's treatment of Tibetians isn't based on cultural values - it's a form of jingoism. China is treating tibetians quite horribly which is borderline if not outright genocide.

Now, do I think Saudi women are mistreated? I don't know. Women are raped all over the world. In the u.s., 25% of women have been raped at least once. Is the rate lower or higher in Saudi culture? Should this be the basis of judging it as more barbaric? Not one high-profile instance?

It's it the shooting of one Tibetian that defines genocide? no.. It's a continued pattern and history.

Ok, I agree there, but I don't think a lot of people criticizing anyone thinks our society is barbaric. And in no way relative to Arab culture.

 

At least 25% of US women have been raped at least once? I think not. Do you enjoy just pulling numbers out of your hat? How about providing a link to back up your statement. Go ahead.



D&D. Some Think Fiction Equals Fact.

 

WTF are you smoking? Show where you got that statistic !!!

While I agree that women are raped all over the world, the PRIMARY difference here NewYorker is that in the USA....we punish the person committing the rape, not the person that got raped.

Saudi Arabian laws are barbaric, and assinine, according to ANY civilized code of conduct.

DD

 

In the U.S. zero rape victims are given 90 lashes for getting into a car with a man especially with the possibility she was blackmailed into the car.

We can judge whether or not that is just.

 

Even if this statistic is true a study was done that found 40% of rape cases are hoaxes.

http://www.kait8.com/Global/story.asp?S=6127133&nav=0jshe2Q9

 

Don't worry... it's not. It happens far too often, but making wild exaggerations in an attempt to make a point isn't helpful in the least.

(unless I do it! )



D&D. Running Amok.

 

I remember DD that you once posted that Muslim's worship a rock in Mecca, it showed your level of ignorance. Now you proclaim that ALL Saudi laws are barbaric/asinine… Have you done any research into their judicial system…

Yes some of the Saudi laws are extreme, go to friggin Singapore and you'll see that some laws are extreme and strange as well, but to friggin call out a whole religion and country as being barbaric based on these laws is extremely stupid and ignorant… How often are these laws upheld, how did they come out to be, where do they stem from? Do you even give a sh*t about the answer's to these questions…or are you willing to label a country and religion from one f**kin article... and make inferences from that alone???..….It's understandable you can't educate yourself on the judicial system of another country but you still have to be objective in regards to something that provides so little information, you can't make a conclusion based on that sh*t alone.

 

Not *all* laws, Chris. But some. Agree?

 

Show me where I said "ALL" laws?

I was of course referring to the one in question, but I am quite certain that there are many others, being that the one in question is so idiotic.

If I said meteorite, would it have helped you understand? And I was being derogatory-Historians claim stone worship in pre Islamic Arabia

"Some Muslims are more willing to believe that the Stone itself has some supernatural powers. They believe that this stone fell from the sky during the time of Adam and Eve, and that it has the power to cleanse worshippers of their sins by absorbing them into itself. They say that the Black Stone was once a pure and dazzling white and it has turned black because of the sins it has absorbed over the years. "


DD

 

LAW"s"...that is the word you used, to me that means plural.

I am quite certain that there are other?
Name them.............................you won't...

LOL, you are a funny man. Time always changes things.