Gang-Raped Victim in Saudi Arabia gets 90 Lashes, Some Rapists get 10 Months

This is interesting, I think the people have spoken...and if they elected Hamas as their leadership, they should understand the consequences of those actions.

Just like the US electing George W. Bush...clearly the country made a mistake and we are paying for it....same as the palastinians.

DD

 

pay for it? so who is to decide who is to get punished and how? what is the common code that we use to decide this?

 

What are the times when the law works? In the US, when messed up laws are being enforced, there's usually genuine discussion to overturn them.

 

It's a bit scary that you are so willing to group "them" together. Your philosophy is that the individual is responsible for a democratic result. That the individual bares the consequences for the decisions of the group.

That isn't the goal of democracy - it's to protect the individual from tyranny - not increase it.

As a country we elected George Bush, and we do deal with the consequences all to painfully. But that doesn't mean each indiviudal is reponsible and should have known better.

The Hamas are not the final voice of the palestinian people. The Hamas may be Palestinian, but Palestinians are not Hamas. And that's a critical distinction that needs to be made.

But if you fail to make it, and you group "them" into a bucket, you're just part of the cycle that propagates real hate, while hiding behind PC superficial notions of equality such as affirmitive action and on-camera gaffes.

 

The laws usually work fine... When there is an issue there are changes made to appease the people...

For example: cell phones with cameras were banned in saudi for a good while... They overturned that when they realized it was too hard to control and that most cellphones come with cameras...

however looking at this situation (taking pics of the rape with the cell phone) it might have been wise to keep them banned...

 

Last time I checked, as a matter of fact, the Catholic Church was severely embarrassed by the whole incident and promised reforms. Of course, whatever step they take will be ineffective (as the cynic in me says), nevertheless, there isn't this attempt to hide behind the veil of peacefulness.

But you are talking about something else altogether aren't you? What's next, Benedict XVI claiming the Crusades wasn't "Christian" because not all Christians participated, and certainly none today?

 

As for the woman getting in her car crap, NewYorker, whether purposefully for not, neglected to mention that the woman only got into the car because the man threatened to tell her that they had an affair, which according to the article is punishable by stoning in that article.

Why leave this important part out hmmm? The usual NewYorker spin crap? Given the way this case was handled, I am not exactly inspired with confidence with the way the Saudi court would handle this woman's alleged adultery. I think death by stoning on one hand vs. 90 lashes on the other really puts this in perspective, so at worst you could say about the woman is that she made a dumb mistake.

But why mention that when you can simply make this a "she broke the law and therefore should be punished issue," especially when you could leave out the stoning by death part.

But wait, what am I saying. NewYorker shouldn't let facts get in the way of his bullsh1ting. Afteralll, he never did before.

 

Not common code, but the rest of the world and their reactions are generally payment enough.

If the Palastinians elected Hamas and their support base in Europe dries up, and around the world there is angst over it.....tough.

Same thing for Bush, we elected him, and the world HATES him and by proxy us......

It is up to the country to make a change.....2008 can't get here soon enough.

DD

 

Ok, what a barbaric law. A women can not get into a car with another man?

What part of the stone age are they living in?

How is that, better?

DD

 

Who said I didn't question? I did question and found the law unjust and unenlightened. I have considered a different perspective, and saw that it was misguided. What I find troubling is that apparently you questioned, and were able to identify with the injustice being carried out so much, that you advocated the innocent rape victim should take the 90 lashes without complaint.

To quote MLK quoting St. Augustine(I think) An unjust law is no law at all.

Going to meet a man, doesn't make someone not innocent regardless of what the law says. To claim that it does is far from making a person or a society further down the path toward enlightenment.

The fact that I condemn this act and law has zero to do with the fact that the U.S. has much to work on.

Using your logic you would have found a way to say that those that marched for civil rights and broke segregation laws, deserved to have the dogs and firehoses turned on them.

After all they knowingly broke the law, and the Police even told them to turn back and warned what would happen. In truth they knew that they would be punished the way they were. But doesn't make those men less innocent, nor does understanding the brutality turned on those man make anyone more enlightened.

 

No one is denying the rape was a crime against her. The question isn't that.

The question is if she broke a law by volunteering to get into a car with a man she was not related to. That is the only reason she is getting lashes.

Since you are enlightened, you should be able to grasp that. Instead, you keep making the issue rape. That is a separate crime that was commited against her. She is not being punished for that.

Now, we can say that by our values it's wrong to prevent a woman from getting into a car with a strange man - but here's news for you.

IN MOST CULTURES, IT'S NOT CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE.

That is there rule of law. They are punishing people for the choices they make. She should be saluted for defying an unjust law. MLK by the way went to India to learn from Gandhi - and did you know what Gandhi believed?

He believed you had every right to violate an unjust law. But he also said you have to accept the consequences, and if you avoided them, then you are merely a criminal.

 

Hmm, among all major media, why is only FoxNews reporting this story? We know what FoxNews is made of. Not sure about the story, though.

 

I peeked at this post, and I'm forced to say I completely agree with you. It's a bitter pill that I'll attempt to bear, but justice requires me to say it. The excuses tossed about by a few, especially NewYorker's sad flings, causes one to wonder at what level of mental powers, or lack there of, could possess a person to be so incredibly callous, sexist, and devoid of common humanity.

I can't fathom such disregard for the tenents of civilization.



D&D. The Cutting Edge of Societal Devolution.

 

again, i must ask you, who are YOU to judge them? do they have half as many kids without knowing who their fathers are as us? do they have b*stard children being born out of 13 yr old middle schoolers?

A woman getting into the car with another man has many consequences... Imagine how many less teacher/student scandals there would be...

Im not saying that their way is the right way and ours is wrong. Im saying that its their LAW, if you don't choose to live by the law, you must pay the price... who are you to judge them. next your gunna get mad at them for eating out of one plate instead of having a separate one for everyone in a group?

 

Bottom line is, those are Saudi laws, we as Americans are blessed not to have to deal with such fundamentalist/extremist laws, but we don't have much say in how the Saudis live either. We're occupying Iraq with a large military force and still can't dictate to them how to live (e.g. Shi'ite or Sunni 'religious police' running around threatening barbers who cut/trim beards with severe punishment, may be even death; harassing and intimidating women who're not completely covered up from head to toe in some areas of the country; other examples of how rigid cultural norms are being enforced regardless of the 'laws on the books').

That's just the world we live in. The USA, EU, UN, and various NGOs regularly protest human rights violations in other countries like China, Saudi, and other totalitarian regimes. Of course, you also have the Russians, Chinese, and the EU occasionally admonish the US for its own shortcomings in certain aspects of human rights as well, so it works both ways. At the end of the day, however, they amount to little more than 'b****ing' fests, and all parties just move on.

 

She didn't voluntarily get into the car with the man. she was blackmailed. She is innocent.

I'm not commenting on whether it is acceptable for her to get in the car with the man.

I'm not making it about rape.

I am talking about the barbarity for giving her 90 lashes for getting to the car with the man. I don't care if it is unacceptable to get into a car with a man. I can accept that is part of their culture. I do not find it acceptable that the punishment for violating that custom is 90 lashes, especially given the circumstances that she was blackmailed into getting in the car in the first place.

As for the bit about accepting the punishement... If she willingly broke the law to protest it, then yes she should accept the punishment. However she did not. She got in the car because she was blackmailed.

The punishment for the crime she "committed" is unjust. In no way is it enlightened to agree with that.

 

1. It's not a custom, it's a law.

2. Blackmail is her claim. You don't know if that was the case or not...or if she just is making that up. It's very suspicious that you'd receive a call from some random person threatning blackmail.

Suspicion number one: The article doesn't explain how the man got her number. Or how he even knew who she was. How did he get her cell number????

Suspicioun number two: Why did she not ever say to her family that some strange man was threatning her? Why....because she must have had a prior connection to the man and wished to hide something.

There's a lot of doubt to her story. Frankly, I find it absurd that you take the whole "blackmail" thing as fact. You want to talk about moronic thinking? I mean, hey, why don't you go rob a bank and then claimed you were blackmailed to do it?

Hey, all i have to do is cry blackmail, and i can get away with anything right?

Nah - of course not. Anyone who has a differing opionion then Dakota Bob must be a moron, because he can't comprehend that anyone might not think exactly the same way.

The reality is this: Yall look down on Islamic culture or find shame in it, so you feel it's your duty to bash it. Tsk Tsk Tsk - look at those A-rabs. How much they need us to save them. It's the white man's burden.

Yeah right, let's call a spade a spade why don't we?

 

1. It is both a custom and a law. It also depends on what nation we are talking about since you mentioned much of the world it not being ok. I addressed it as law later in my post.

2. You are right blackmail is her claim, but unlike you I give more credibility to her than her rapists.

3. It isn't hard to get people's cell phone numbers especially if you are willing to do something illegal.

4. She wouldn't tell her family because of fear of the blackmail and the shame it would bring.

5. You may find a lot to doubt in her story, but I find a lot to doubt in the story of the rapists.

6. If you think I look down on Muslim culture you haven't been reading the boards. That is just plain ignorant of you to say that. As I said I don't have a problem with the culture. I do have a problem with injustice, and giving a woman 90 lashes is injustice.

You are so far off base with this whole episode. My respect for someone who doubts the rape victim, and tends to believe the rapists more, and excuses 90 lashes given to the woman is very damaged.

 

Well if you think more violence will stop violence, good luck to you. Thank Allah for that law. Women would be really in danger without it.