Gang-Raped Victim in Saudi Arabia gets 90 Lashes, Some Rapists get 10 Months

Then put me on ignore. Why bother making it personal? Do I complain about your mocking me and my style? When it gets to the point where it annoys me, I'll just put you on ignore. It's really simple ya know. You can do the same.

The fact that you and others don't indicated one or both of the following:
1. You find value in my posts
2. You are just getting out some form of internal anger/aggression.

Now, you can think whatever you like - that's your right, but stick to the discussion and leave me out of it.

 

If you are serious, I'll set up a paypal account.

 

You are right and I don't mean to make it personal. I only said something hoping that it might help.

I try to see value in everyone's posts, and I don't have anyone on ignore.

I wasn't trying to mock your style, just voice the way it comes off, whether you intended it to or not.

 

FB;

I try to be fair to everyone but in this case don't bother. This is a tactic I've seen New Yorker use before, including in this thread. His argument is shown to be inconsistent with previous statements he's made and then he comes out and claims that you are making it personal. If you respond to it he claims he has succeeded in proving that you are closed minded and mean spirited since the fact you are arguing with him now that he claims its personal shows that you are really hateful. If you claim you are not he will say you are a hypocrite since you are still debating him and are obsessed about winning an argument.

 

Where have you been? You should have known it by long ago. Besides, "keeping words", honesty, facts, and logic are just load of "PC" crap, what "open-minded" people would care for that?

 

LOL.

 

It's called de facto discrimination.

It was the law that put this woman in the position to be raped in the first place. She would be stoned for being with another man, so she could be easily blackmailed by anybody who knew of her actions. The blackmail led to the rapes, and the rapes ultimately led to her being prosecuted and sentenced.

Do you think that women aren't discriminated against in Saudia Arabia?

 

Now we can see what a crappy debate team could do to it's members. It has taught NewYorker how to avoid losing a debate by putting words in other people's mouths, twisting what other people have said, backpedaling, dodging the tough questions, etc. NewYorker wouldn't be the hypocrite he is today if he had not make the mistake by joining that crappy debate team back in his school days. He is a prime example to show that everyone has to be very careful when picking his/her debate team.

 

I really appreciate that. I think it says a lot about your character and I really admire you for what you wrote.

I'll try to take what you said into account and I am sorry if I insulted you in any way.

 

Too bad you feel that way. I respond to your posts because I'm trying to get to a point to see eye-to-eye with ya...but it seems that you are looking for any excuse not to.

 

Keeping words, honesty, facts, and logic...LOL. It's so funny to see all these words to be put in the same sentence with NewYorker the screenname.

 

There's no proof she was blackmailed, in fact, it's suspicious that the blackmailing story only came out much later. Very suspicious.

Anyway, the very fact that you are so willing to condemn Saudi society on filmsy evidence in one instance is representive of what I find disturbing here. A propensity to judge based on cultural biases.

You know, at first I was frustrated by the constant personal attacks and little effort to understand the POV I was trying to bring here. So I said I was going to quit. But I'm not so sure now.

Oh - there are people who will say that I am going back on what I said earlier - but guess what - I changed my mind. What an amazing thing!

 

This would be one sensational and moving post if the poster is not NewYorker who has casually cracked racist jokes and used derogatory racist terms repeatedly in his posts in the other threads before. Now this post has hypocrisy written all over it.

 

I don't know how to quote everyone, but pretty much everyone is arguing based on this notion I believe, so I'll rpely to FranchiseBlade's comment..


Stupidity is a poor word for what we're trying to describe. But let's use it anyway. Slipping and hitting a switch that sets off a nuclear warhead is stupidity. Waving a 6-month child from a balcony is stupidity. Pooring tobasco in your eye is stupidity.

Murder is stupidity. Is murder not punishable?

You say it shouldn't be physical punishment (lashes), but that's your opinion. Hey, to a certain extent, it's mine as well. But the reality is that in the culture/society we are talking about (the girl), lashes are the punishment for the crime.

I live in Dubai. No one gets lashes here and I'm rather glad it's the way it is.. Which is why, I won't ever move to Saudi. I'm not gonna go there and have a few drinks and say "hey, this law is stupid, don't lash me"... I just won't go there. Your country, your rules. I'll stay back here. When I borrow my brother's car, he likes me to get it washed before I return it to him. Now, he never washes his car so it seems unreasonable to me, but I do it. You know why? It's his car. He set the condition before I used it. If there was a contract saying "wash the car before you bring it back or 100 lashes" then I'd either sign it or not.

This girl signed the contract.

You want to talk about whether the law in GENERAL is unjust? We can go on for hours. But we both know there's no way you can state your case without getting to a point where there's a difference of opinion rather than facts. Getting into a guy's car is perceieved VERYYYYYYY differently in Saudi than it is in the US. Similarly, the average female taken out of the US and placed AS SHE IS in Saudi suddenly becomes a criminal because she's not dressed "appropriately". In this example, appropriate means different things in different countries.

In the original example, "cruel punishment" and "indecent behavior" mean different things in different countries.

 

Btw, I hold enormous respect for the way FranchiseBlade conducts himself here. I get frustrated at times because my opinion is usually in the minority, but FranchiseBlade always seems to maintain his demeanour and put forth a great argument. Just wanted to give you props on that.

 

While this girl is a member of Saudi society its hard to claim a voluntary social contract when she is a member of a class that cannot voluntarily on their own leave Saudi Arabia.

 

Or speak out and ask for their rights.

 

And what right of her has been violated?

Remember, the her male companion received the same sentencing.

 

Thanks for the kind word.

You are right those other things are stupidity, but they also infringe on other's rights, and freedoms. They endanger others. Getting into a car only endangers the person who did it. I think that is why there is a difference.

Given the difference in societal norms, and values, I wouldn't even protest a punishment because she got into the car with the man. But I would disagree with that punishment being 90 lashes.

 

From the Amnesty International website:

Saudi Arabia: Time is long overdue to address women's rights

"Saudi woman is a first class citizen....has rights...duties ...and responsibility... when we talk about the comprehensive development which our country is experiencing in all aspects we can not ignore the role of Saudi woman ....and her participation in the responsibility of this development."
Crown Prince 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Aziz Al-Sa'ud of Saudi Arabia quoted by Al-jazeera newspaper on 6 December 1999.

"Despite an encouraging emerging debate on women's rights in Saudi Arabia, women still face extreme forms of discrimination and restriction on their basic human rights." Amnesty International said in its report " Gross human rights abuses against women" released today.

The report details different patterns of human rights violations suffered by women as a result of policies and practices cemented by customs and fatawa ( religious edicts ).

Discrimination against women touches virtually all aspects of their lives including family life, decision making, employment, education and the justice system. It impacts upon and compounds the wide range of human rights violations commonly reported in Saudi Arabia.

" The lives of women in Saudi Arabia are regulated by a web of mores, rules and fatawa. It is the will of the state that controls almost every aspect of women's daily life, from their right of movement to the right to redress for violent assault." Amnesty International said.

Limitations on movement
Women can not walk alone even in their own neighbourhood without the fear of being stopped, beaten or detained particularly by the religious police as suspected moral offenders. This is because there are more constraints placed on the behaviour of women than men. For instance they are not allowed to go anywhere, or leave the country without a male guardian (mahram) or his written consent.

Criminal justice system
Women in Saudi Arabia, like men, face torture, corporal judicial punishment such as flogging and execution after summary trials which do not meet the basic standards of fair trial. However, it is more harsh for women due to the discrimination which they are subjected to in society. When they come into contact with the criminal justice system, women are invariably interrogated by men. Having no previous contact with unrelated men, they are consequently vulnerable to being intimidated into giving confessions, which are used as a sole evidence for conviction and punishment.

Discrimination in education and work
"Is there any logical justification for spending huge amount of money on women's education when thousands of female graduates face the prospect of either remaining at home or entering a single profession."
Editorial article by Saudi Arabian Journalist Abdul Rahman Al-Rashid, published in the Saudi Arabian newspaper Arab News, 4 April 2000.

Discrimination in law against women is not only limited to laws regulating the system of government and decision-making. For example, the Labour Code in Saudi Arabia contain direct and indirect discriminatory clauses against women. Gender segregation often means that women are limited to unequal facilities and opportunities

Statistics from the last few years show that women represent 55 per cent of university graduates. They own 40 per cent of private wealth, own 15,000 commercial establishments, yet can not publicly administer or be part of any dealings regarding their business. They must be represented by a male relative or a wakil shar'iy ( attorney).

Domestic violence
"Violence in dealing with the wife in our Saudi society is a crime that no one likes to talk about and the harm continues because of that silence." Dr Abu Baker Ba Qadir, Professor of Sociology at King 'Abdul-'Aziz University in Jeddah quoted by Al-Majalla, issue No 1063, 25 June -1 July 2000.

Amnesty International has been able to uncover little about the issue of domestic violence in Saudi Arabia. The authorities do not publish statistics in relation to the prosecution of men who have been accused of assaulting their wives.

Amnesty International believes that some laws and practices in Saudi Arabia, such as limitations on women's movement, aggravate the impact of abuses committed by private individuals. Limitations on the freedom of movement of women are such that it is often difficult for them to seek protection or redress without risking further abuse.

Domestic workers
" I was regularly spat at by all members of the family, and beaten, usually by the father. He used to hit me with his Iqal. The beatings began when I had been in the house for three months. I asked for my salary as at that point I had received nothing.... From that point, I was beaten everyday."
Quotation from Nativadad Lumpiado, a domestic worker from the Philippines.

Female domestic workers suffer from discrimination as foreign nationals and women. They are excluded from the protections afforded to other workers by the Labour Code. As a result, they are frequently overworked and rarely given time off and often locked in the homes of their employers. Their isolation makes them even more vulnerable to assaults which will not be witnessed by anyone outside the family of their employers, as well as being an easy target for false allegations.

Domestic workers interviewed by Amnesty International described gross exploitation including arbitrary deprivation of liberty, verbal and physical abuse, restriction of movement and sometimes non payment of their salaries, which amount to slave-like working conditions.
Karsini binti Sandi, a 19-year-old Indonesian domestic worker, told Amnesty International that she was assaulted by her employers and then abused and threatened with execution by police officers when she asked them for help. She eventually escaped and returned to Indonesia.

Time for Action
Amnesty International welcomes Saudi Arabia's recent important and positive step in signing the United Nations Covenant on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), albeit with sweeping reservations. The human rights organization urges the Saudi Arabian
Government not to use such reservations to undermine the value and intent of the Convention.

"We hope that this report will contribute to the ongoing debate," Amnesty International's Secretary General Pierre Sane said, "We believe that the time is long overdue for Saudi Arabian women to be given more opportunity to enjoy their full rights as human beings".