Gang-Raped Victim in Saudi Arabia gets 90 Lashes, Some Rapists get 10 Months

I am spewing crap? Where are your facts? I am quoting articles from CBS, NBC etc. You are the one getting upset. I still don't understand what you are trying to defend. Do you defend lashing people for "mixed" dancing? Do you defend lashing people for the public expression of religious belief other than Islam? Do you defend lashing people for drinking? Do you defend discrimination, segregation, and apartheid? Please tell exactly what are you so defensive about.

 

I think everyone understands that she the lashes aren't directly due to her being raped but the point of this thread is to point out a disproportionate response in Saudi law. What people are criticizing Saudi law is that it under it a crime which doesn't appear to be very serious and one that only puts herself at harm is being brutally punished while a very serious crime that grievously harms someone else is relatively being lightly punished. The fact that both events happened to the same person highlights that juxtaposition.

And I think most of us debating the issue do understand that these are different. That said though the circumstances do matter. In the US and many other justice systems judges and juries do consider extenuating circumstances in regard to sentencing and many debating this issue are considering the extenuating circumstances. In this case yes she broke Saudi law but as a consequence of that was put in a situation where she was brutally raped. The actually crimes committed were committed by different people but they are related as one event precipitated the other. That is an extunating circumstance in regard to the punishment that should be considered in sentencing.

Given that this is the situation with US law and its likely that Saudi law works differently. I think everyone understands that except for those who continue to cling to the argument regarding how imperfect US laws are. The issue though is a matter of principle. It is a matter of Saudi laws and whether they are just. I don't think anyone would disagree that there are miscarriages of justice all the time in the US or that US laws themselves aren't barbaric. That doesn't mean that we don't criticize them at the sametime though that doesn't mean that we can't criticize Saudi laws either.

The argument that we are hypocrites for criticizing Saudi laws when many of our laws are barbaric and irrational is flat out wrong when many of us agree and have criticized US laws. We would be hypocrites if we didn't criticized Saudi laws while criticizing our own.

 

As usual, you nail the topic. Sometimes, I don't know why I bother posting when there are members like you, who express what I might attempt in a fashion far better than mine.



D&D. The Cutting Edge of Societal Devolution.

 

Only after 13 pages in which I was accused of labeling someone who gets raped a criminal. Look back at the beginning of this thread before you make that conclusion.

So you are saying that if something bad happens to the violator of the law - if a drunk driver gets severely hurt, if a woman gets raped, or whatever - then the punishment should be lessened? I just want to make sure we got what you are saying.

As for the rapists getting a light 10 months. That's a lie - it was 4-5 years, on par with what Mike Tyson got. Should rape get more years? Certainly - but look, it's on par with our system.

And the woman didn't get any jail time or has received any lashes. That's something to be considered. She was only SENTENCED to 90 lashes. Now, as painful as 90 lashes might sound - it's still not a single day in jail or a single dollar paid.

 

I think Newyorker is trying out to be the new Lhutz.

That's pretty funny stuff NY. I think you had a few of us going there for a bit.

 

I didnt claim anything hence i dont have to bring facts. Or does that concept just not fit into your head? It is you who claimed all sorts of crap and then provided articles that dont have an ounce to do with what you posted.

I am defensive because people like you read the title of an article, generalize about the country and muslims, and then make all sorts of absurd conclusions. Its people like you that keep racism, bigotry, and hatred alive in such a multicultural melting pot society.

 

Ask and ye shall receive.

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As others have pointed out there is a crucial difference between this woman and a drunk driver in regard to the potential harm to others. Also note in my post I point out this is an issue that is considered in sentencing so yes there are extenuating circumstances regarding the outcome of a situation regarding a crime that may lesson the sentencing.

That is a recognized aspect of almost all justice systems.

I didn't say anything about the 10 months sentence. I said relatively light. Most people would consider a brutal gang raping relatively light considering that there are US states that a crime like that would lead to an automatic life sentence while other countries still apply the death penalty to it. Many, including myself would consider Tyson's sentence to have been light.

As I said earlier just because we criticize Saudi Arabia doesn't mean we don't criticize the US.

First off 90 lashes is not somthing light. I've actually seen footage of someone being lashed in Malaysia that was broadcast by Malaysian news as a part of an anti-drug campaign and its not pretty. There is a signifigant chance of death due to infection, blood loss and shock but even when done by an expert still results in permanent damage.

Second note in my post I specifically stated "sentencing" so yes I agree there is a chance her sentence could be commuted. That said the sentencing and the law strikes most of us as barbaric. It would be a great gesture of the Prince to commute it and if he does I would certainly say that is a good example of mercy on his part but as it stands the law and sentencing guidelines they follow are barbaric.

 

You are off your rocker.

 

Don't take it personally. This must've been a tough period for Adeel. He came out of the closet a few months ago. I only read the first page of his thread proclaiming he was gay. So I'm not sure how it went with his family. Anyways, best wishes to Adeel and his life partner.

 

Spurious mr. chang. You pulled up selective points, people reacting in some cases against the prevailing conventional wisdom.

I like how you admit those who asked "How can you blame a rape-victim" or she is "innocent" - there's plenty there. But I guess you choose only those comments to support your POV as opposed to the sentiments on the board.

But thanks for the time investment. If you produced both sides, and showed that indeed there was a lot of discussion going on about "blaming a rape victim" I might think there was a desire from you to discuss instead of win a debate.

By the way - there were many posters who simply called them barbarians livinng in the stone age.

Well, you can say the U.S. isn't above criticism - but how are we not barbarians living in the stone age as well? How do we not go lightly on rape if Iron Mike gets only 3 years in prision for raping someone. Had he been part of a gang rape then he should have gotten life???? Why? What's the difference there?

I'm not trying to say Saudi law isn't repressive. It is. But that doesn't mean they are barbarians living in the stone age. No more then we are for capital punishment and all the screwed up things over here.

As I said - it's one thing to criticize, and another to practice superiority.

People say how can I criticize China and defend Saudi Arabia????

Easy - I never said the Chinese people were less then us. I never said they are barbaric. Or backwards. Or stupid.

Because they are not.

And neither is anyone. The second you fall into the trap of labeling people this way, then you in fact become the barbarian - capable of the great atrocities. This is the root of hate and the ability to do terrible things.

It starts by making another people less then ourselves. If you call the Saudis inferior and barbarians....well, hey, that's how the Nazi's saw the Jews. Would all of those who call a people barbarians like to know they have something in common with the Nazis?

Just food for thought....

 

You'll never accomplish what you seek to accomplish with that approach - trust me, I have tried.

 

The thing that I find most amusing is the fact that you derided everyone in the macaca thread for being PC and what you posted above is as PC as you can get.

 

I don't seek to accomplish anything but to stop others from accomplishing their hatred spewing posts... especially when it involves my religion.

 

I was just clarifying it for those who did not get it

I thought the initial article referenced was a bit misleading even though it did point out why the woman was being sentenced for 90 lashes. It did not explain the basic facts in the case; I myself thought that the guy who was supposedly blackmailing her was part of the group that raped her…until I did some research.

Definitely debatable…the courts believe the two were having an out of marriage relationship (what is the cultural view upon this in Saudi Arabia, a factor which plays a major part)... I believe your argument would be stronger if she was blackmailed into getting into the car, that would be a mitigating factor… also if it was the guy himself who raped this girl then again your argument will probably hold as well.

You are one of the smarter posters on this board...don't disagree with you often.

My post was just to point out the facts in the case, I just think it's important to know what exactly occurred, hard to put an opinion on something without knowing the facts…I never stated one way or the other whether the lashing was an extreme punishment or not. I just think a few people in here didn't get it(the facts), my job was to educate them on it.

It's all good and fair to criticize something, but it's different when you pick on one specific target, there are a lot of f*cked up things going on in this world, for some reason we are concentrating on a group of people. Is that fair?

Are you replying to me or NewYorker

 

Fair? you are talking about fair? I think most people are not focusing on any one particular people as you say, but rather on this particular case.

And it points out how "UNFAIR" the rules are in Saudi Arabia. Which is cause for criticism.

Don't you agree?

DD

 

Well then they have something in common.

"Israeli citizens and travelers with Israeli stamps on their passports are forbidden to enter the country. It has been stated that Jews of any nationality are not allowed visas.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) -- A court sentenced a teacher to 40 months in prison and 750 lashes for "mocking religion" after he discussed the Bible and praised Jews, a Saudi newspaper reported yesterday.

Public practice of any other religion is banned."

I haven't called anyone anything. Yet I am accused of "spewing crap" for putting links to internet articles from NBC, CBS, The Washington Times and Wikipedia. And I am also accused of "spinning" articles when I quoted the exact text and headlines. You may approve of lashing people for discussing ideas, philosophies and religions, but please dot not expect the rest of the world to do so.

 

No. I don't care at all about language and it's iffy interpretation.

Maccaca is PC because it's suspected of calling someone inferior. The PC gang jumps all over something that may not have clear intent.

But saying you are superior to another people isn't PC, that's blatent jingoism.

I find it amusing that as a minority you can't see the difference. I would find it distrubing, but i'm pretty cynical now.

 

as clearly explained to you several times, due to george allen's family background, there is absolutely no possible way that he could not have known what macaca really meant.

to say he didnt know what macaca meant would be the equivalent of someone whose mother was born in nyc, but that person grew up in france. this person speaks fluent english and is a frequent traveler to the united states. at a political rally in paris they call someone the "n word" and than try to say that they were talking about their hairstyle (even though they were wearing a beret).

 

Adeel:

I don't think you have to spew hate or condemn a religion when criticizing an absurd law.

If Islam is about 90 lashes for being with a man who's not your husband...then I stand corrected -- it is backwards. But that's not the Islam I know. The muslims I know don't hold those views.

You have to expect some religion bashing when these matters are discussed. Just as Catholicism or Christians are bashed about the views of some on gays or the alter boy infatuation and cover-up or some of the lunacy that comes from televangalists and other self proclaimed defenders of morality. You can still be a proud muslim and condemn this type of punishment. By defending it, however, unless you somehow do a damned good job, you marginalize your religion.

Unbelievable that a thread on a woman getting sentenced to a beating for being in the presence of a man is worthy of 17 pages. Of couse New Yorkers 80 posts did egg us on a bit.

 

As I stated above, I've not stated one way or the other whether it was fair for the girl.


I don't think I could argue differently, it IS an EXTREME law. I would not go as far and say it is barbaric or take my anger out on their religion. I would think it is similar to the case in Singapore with the guy who did some spray painting and was supposed to get some lashings for it. The crime does not equal the punishment.