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Game 4 is why the Rockets did not invest in a backup C

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by durvasa, May 11, 2009.

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  1. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    This has veered way off topic, but I'm going to make my peace with this and be done with it. It's not something I want to bring up again.

    Those posts were expressing valid, differing opinions, which I encouraged in the original post. I'm not looking for everyone to agree with the same perspective. How boring would that be?

    This was your first post:

    I don't have any particular issue with that, except you decided to tack on a "Get real." at the end. Ok, if that's how you to do it, you should at least be saying something new. But you weren't. Where's the evidence that the reason Yao was playing heavy minutes is because we didn't have a 7-foot backup? You tried, but couldn't come up with anything. And your "a game doesn't make a formula" just comes out of left field. Be "sultry" if you prefer, but be prepared to back up what you say.

    Next post:

    Really ... was the "No Sherlock" that necessary? I mean, if you're going to throw rubbish like that out there just because someone disagreed with you, you're simply being a jackass. I'm sorry if that's "sultry" of me to point out, but it needs to be said when you do it over and over again. I have no problems with people disagreeing with me, but I have my limits with posters like you. The shame of it is you're knowledgeable about the game, and I respect a lot of the points you make. It would be cool to actually engage you in a substantive basketball conversation, but your attitude usually makes that too unbearable.
     
    #81 durvasa, May 12, 2009
  2. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    No, Von Wafer (and, to some extent, Kyle Lowry) has replaced him in the rotation. I was just saying that the Rockets made the choice last offseason to commit dollars to improving the backcourt instead of the front court. The actual acquisition they made did not turn out as well as they hoped, but we do see that the Rockets have overachieved in these playoffs with a revamped back-court and the same front court.

    That Brent Barry has not had a role in the Rockets success doesn't in itself mean his signing was a mistake at the time. Again, there was no way at the time to know that Von Wafer would become the contributor he did.
     
    #82 durvasa, May 12, 2009
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  3. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    Durvasa, I just think morey did a poor job of balancing the roster out. Barry avg 5ppg in the playoffs last yr for the spurs. They have been trying to trade him every yr since they had him. I'm not saying he can't play, i'm just saying the team's goal shouldve been getting bigger and more athletic. I have no problem with replacing head, ok, but why was head on the roster until the trade dealine? If you sign barry, why keep head and francis? Just get what you can and free up salary or trade them for a player that's in someone else doghouse. Example is williams from nj. Is he a hard head? Yes, b ut he's a 6'10 shot blocking pf/c. All nj wants is the ability to get into 2010 sweeps. Trading williams for head makes since for both teams. Another guy is petro from ok city. Again, a big body for a small guy that doesn't fit. Once nenad was signed;petro was on the way out. Is petro a savior? No, but he's has some production on this level and he's a big guy. Instead, he's on denver's team that really doesn't need him, but is insurance if they need another big body. Denver will not run out of bigs and that's including having hunter in street clothes.

    This is just my thoughts and tracking of previous teams. Like I said earlier, hakeem had thorpe as a primary and even guys that didn't play like eric riley and zan tabak, earl cureton and charles jones, but dream could carry a team physically for many games. When he went out for a breather or foul trouble, they didn't shrink. They played more pick and roll with thorpe, but they still kept their size.
     
    #83 leebigez, May 12, 2009
  4. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Let's suppose you're right, and the Rockets did a poor job in balancing the roster. Throughout the year, the Rockets have had to deal with significant injuries to Tracy Mcgrady, Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Carl Landry. They had Mutombo play for a grand total of 9 regular season games, and 1 playoff game. With all that, they were still in position to get the number 2 seed in the Western Conference on the last day of the season, they advanced past the first round, and they've given the Lakers a battle in the second round. If a team is so imbalanced, as you keep arguing, how do you explain the resiliency of this team after all the injuries? Doesn't that point to a group with good depth and good versatility?
     
    #84 durvasa, May 12, 2009
  5. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    The same way they challenged for the 1 seed last yr without out Yao for the last 30 games. The same way dallas tries mid stream to change the identity of their team by trading for kidd when actually their identity is that of their best player. Teams can have flaws and win games in this league. Sometimes great coaching can be air freshner on dog poop. The deal or idea is insulate your team as best possible. I think this team plays very,very hard which helps them overcome a lot. Maybe poorly constructed vs roster balance is better. The mcgrady thing was insulated by artest and I all honesty,losing yao and tracy can't be compensated for, but if adelman had a big he felt good about, I think he would play him more. Just like once he felt good about scola and landry, chuck stop playing. Adelman doesn't really have a history or specialist. Now he'll coach anyone like jvg, but if adelman has it his way, he would only play hayes in a emergency. Clutch said we have to be careful what we say and I know for a fact adelman doesn't like his backup center situation. Its nothing against deke, but deke,hayes, and shane to a lessor extent aren't the kind of players he prefers from a offensive standpoint.
     
    #85 leebigez, May 12, 2009
  6. michecon

    michecon Member

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    This is way over topic. But, just admit that you tag the choice of word "formula" way too much meaning. If you take offense to the "get real", I apologize, but I think that's over sensitive given how this bbs goes. You should check out how DD posts. For the record, "No Sherlock" refers to your "schtick", or outrage over "formula", frankly, I didn't know what you were talking about.
     
    #86 michecon, May 12, 2009
  7. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Yup, it's similar to "are we better without a healthy Tmac" thing. It's not how we played, it's how we could have played, or what more flexibility we have. I guess that's a hard concept for people to grasp.
     
    #87 michecon, May 12, 2009
  8. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    I don't know where you're getting that Adelman doesn't care for his front court situation, or for Shane Battier. You've hinted in the past that you have some insider sources, but I can only go by the external information. Coach Adelman and the rest of the coaches go out of their way to praise what Shane Battier and Chuck Hayes bring the team. They constantly talk about the effort and resiliency of the ball club. They seem to love the players that the Rockets have supplied them. You say the situation is different, but I've seen very little to suggest that from what the coaches have said or what the beat writers have written.

    To me, a balanced roster is one that can play at a high level against a variety of opponents and can sustain injuries. You can have a player of every shape and size on your roster, if they're not good enough to win you a lot of games or sustain injuries, that type of "balance" hasn't earned you a whole lot. So, the Rockets look at balance in a slightly different way, I think. They focus on gathering players who are versatile and can play multiple positions. And not just players who are versatile offensively, also players who are versatile on the defensive side. Shane Battier and Chuck Hayes are prime examples of this -- seemingly 1-dimensional on offense, but amongst the most versatile defenders at their respective positions in the league. And when you're bringing in a player, you look for guys that will play very, very, very hard for you. It almost seems like you don't consider that attribute is particularly important, but that will win games. That will keep you competitive when you face adversity. To me, that's essential when you're trying to build a championship-caliber, resilient, and balanced team.

    And, by no stretch are the Rockets done. If they were, I'd be picking them to be beat the Lakers. I recognize that Morey's job isn't finished, and this team needs to get better. But what I'm seeing is a team that's improving year after year, and yes I'd say they're getting more balanced year after year as well. It's a good trend, and I'm optimistic the Rockets will be an even better team next year.
     
    #88 durvasa, May 12, 2009
  9. deeperblue

    deeperblue Member

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    It is the defence, manm, defence and rebounding.

    With Yao there, it is a lot harder for the oponent team to drive inside, really hard for them. Without a solid big inside, it becomes very vulnerable.

    Small can beat big on offensive end, and you can do it pretty consistently. But small can never stop bigs on denfensive end consistently. Well, I mean, a small line up vs a tall line up, not individual match up. Even on individual basis, it is very hard for small to stop the big, provided that their speed difference is not too big.


     
    #89 deeperblue, May 12, 2009
  10. TMac4Life#1

    TMac4Life#1 Member

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    all im gonna say is that its been 6-7 years now without a back up center. Yeah we had Mutombo but he rarely played. Only time he played is when Yao was hurt. I don't think we will see a back-up center anytime soon with the PF's we have. Landry,Scola, and Hayes can play some of the back-up mins.

    Also with the way the game is today everyone is basically going small. The combination of Landry and Scola would solve the problem.
     
    #90 TMac4Life#1, May 12, 2009
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    You can always say that adding another player to your roster makes you more flexible, or gives your the potential of doing something you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. But, the reality is that there are limited number of spots on the team, and a limited amount of money to be spent. You can't add players indefinitely. You have to decide: are we better off adding this type of player, or investing elsewhere.

    Do you grasp that concept? Do you see why, "Adding a 7-footer gives us more options obviously" doesn't end the discussion?
     
    #91 durvasa, May 12, 2009
  12. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Consider that the Orlando Magic and the Houston Rockets were amongst the best defensive teams in the league this season, and they both make heavy use of small lineups.

    On defense, there are a number of attributes that are important. I think don't know if I'd rank size ahead of being able to move your feet. One of the best things a good defensive team can do is switch on pick and rolls. With the small ball lineup that Orlando employs, they'll do that a lot. If you watch the Denver Nuggets in these playoffs, they also will switch on the pick and rolls for the most part because they have bulky wings in Dahntay Jones and Carmelo Anthony, and quick-footed bigs in Kenyon Martin and Nene. The Rockets are particularly good on defending those pick and rolls when they go to a small ball lineup, because they can be more aggressive in either showing or actually switching it.
     
    #92 durvasa, May 12, 2009
  13. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Oh I do, I just think that for a team that have Yao Ming injured 3 out of last 4 seasons should put a bit higher priority on a backup center. I believe they value Barry's 3 pointers more than his ball controlling ability.

    But let's not venture on derivative topic, like this bbs always do. This thread is about you speculating that Rockets doesn't get a backup C over Barry because they know they can go small and be successful, which I and many others don't agree.

    Many factors may go into the backup C situation. I'll start with 1) Known good bigs are expensive. 2) Unknown bigs are difficult to scout. See Dorsey. 3) They bet on Yao's health. 4) Tmac's potential injury was more "known" to them than Yao's potential injury.

    If you look around best teams in the League, each of them have multiple bigs over 6'9 that can man the middle.
     
    #93 michecon, May 12, 2009
  14. saleem

    saleem Member

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    No one is saying we need a 7 foot guy with limited skills or poor footwork. Denver is employing bigs, and not just small guys as you have correctly pointed out. Nene is 6'10",K-Mart 6'9. In Game 2 against the Lakers,having Chuck on the court wasn't enough to stop Gasol.
     
    #94 saleem, May 12, 2009
  15. rv2843

    rv2843 Member

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    Then why would coach play Yao 40+ minutes?? Yao definitely needed breathe time during playoff games, and the injury situation might have been different if he have had less playtime.
     
    #95 rv2843, May 12, 2009
  16. deeperblue

    deeperblue Member

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    Seems you forgot why we lost to Jazzs and Mavs couple of years ago. In critical moments, we don't have big and atheletic guys inside and we lost critical rebounds.

    Yao is great in defense in most times. But becaus he is slow, it is very tough for him when he has to stop a particular play.

     
    #96 deeperblue, May 12, 2009
  17. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    Durvas, this team is not versitile at all. To me being versitile means having the same with different production from different people. Deke and Yao can't play together productively. Scola and Landry can't play together. Brooks and Lowry can't play together. Now when I say together, its like for long stretches. Wing players are different because that's why they call the 2/3 wings. The same guys scola struggles with, most times those guys gives landry problems also. The same guy brooks struggle with, lowry struggle with. Being versitile to me is like denver. Anderson can play with Nene or Martin. You can shake those three up in a can and any combination you throw out, you're ok. Billups and Carter can play together because Billups is big and strong enough to guard 2 guards. This isn't some johnny come lately theme because denver is winning either. We've had this discussion before. Its like your lineup should be different yet the same. I already know we're not going to agree, but that's cool.
     
    #97 leebigez, May 12, 2009
  18. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Here's a list of guys over 6-9 who can get on the court:

    Boston:
    Glen Davis 6-9
    K.G 6-11
    Mikki Moore 6-11
    Perkins 6-10
    Scalabrine 6-9
    not counting Powe 6-8 and O'Bryant 7-0

    Cavs
    big Z 7-3
    Joe Smith 6-10
    Varejoe 6-10
    Ben 6-9
    Wright 6-11
    Hickson 6-9

    Orlando
    Battie 6-11
    Foyle 6-10
    Gortat 7-0
    DH 6-11
    They have Lewis play the 4

    Lakers
    Bynum 7-0
    Gasol 7-0
    Mbenga 7-0
    Mihm 7-0
    Not counting Odom

    Denver
    Birdman 6-10
    Nene 6-11
    Petro 7-0
    Kmart 6-9

    Houston
    YM 7-6
    Landry 6-9
    Deke
    Scola 6-9
     
    #98 michecon, May 12, 2009
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Well I definitely agree that Yao should not be playing the minutes he did. So you can do that in two ways. Replace him with another 7-footer, or go to a smaller lineups and outquick the other team. I'm not so sure that Yao's minutes would have been less if the Rockets had a 7-footer on the bench. It's quite possible that 7-footer, if he played at all, would have simply taken minutes away from Scola/Landry/Hayes.

    The last couple years, with a capable 7-footer available in Dikembe Mutombo, Adelman rarely went to him for backup duties. I think Yao's minutes will have to be monitored more closely going forward, but does that mean the solution is to bring in a Jamal Magloire (or whoever is available) type, or to go to a "small ball" lineup (as we saw in game 4) more often? Which would be better for the team?
     
    #99 durvasa, May 12, 2009
  20. michecon

    michecon Member

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    It would have been a legit argument if Deke is 27 years old, and can consistently play 15 minutes a game productively, and more when needed, ALL SEASON.
     
    #100 michecon, May 12, 2009
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