I actually go to UH now. I didn't mean to imply that A&M was a lesser institution, just that my law school admitted twice as many Longhorns. Aggies come in second as far as representation. However, the number one guy in my class is an Aggie. I know that the LSAC (the group that runs the LSAT and controls the law school application process) weighs your GPA based on what school you go to, meaning a 4.0 isn't counted the same from school to school. That weight can make a big difference on your GPA/LSAT index. I can't see how medical schools wouldn't do something similar. I just think if a person wanted to go to a top ten medical school, he should look and see which undergrad programs that give him the best chance to get in. It'd be different if you didn't care where you went, but Baylor Med is very competitive. I happen to know one student who goes there, and he went to Stanford and had a 4.0 in Biomed Engineering. He's already been admitted to Rice to get his PhD after he finishes his MD. So yeah, it's friggin competitive.
Uh, no dog. I rank them with much different tiers, as does most of the legal establishment. The difference between #5 and # 25 is substantial, and far greater than the diference between, say 25 and 45, or 45 and 65. I went to a top 5 law school - which I chose over UT - a top 20 school. Every single one of my classmates, from valedictorian to the bottom quartile, could get a job paying top market rate in the market of their choice. I was in the bottom half of my class, or certainly not much higher than that. I got a job at an NY firm making top market rate as a 2L. Hell, even with a UT degree I couldn't do that. Quite simply, if you go to any of the following schools: Harvard Yale Stanford Columbia Chicago NYU You can write your own ticket. If you go to these schools, there is an 80-90% chance you can write your own ticket, or at least a work wherever you want in whatever city you want. Michigan Cornell Georgetown Duke UVa Penn Northwestern Boalt The rest of schools after that are all pretty good too. Outside of 25 or so there is a HUGE dropoff in the way top firms perceive people. I doubt many people at #30 or #50 have the same optons. If you are not top 10% outside of the elite law schools, your chance of landing an AmLaw 100 job is slim to none without some other kicker (I worked with non top tier grads - they were all on law review and in the VERY top of their class - because that is the prerequisite just to get a call back if you come from Brooklyn Law School (the equivalent of UH here)). Conversely if you snooze through Yale or Harvard or Stanford, you can write your own ticket. Why? Because you went to freaking Yale, that's why. If you snooze (or even do well but don't excel) your way through UH, or even a top 25 school like Texas or George Washington - I hope you like makng 70k working insurance defense your first year out, because the TTT jobs are not in your range. If you know otherwise, let me know. How many bottom half UH students land a job at V&E or Baker & Botts after graduation? I'm going to guess it's as many who you see at Cravath, Sullivan, Wachtell, Williams & Connoly, Quinn Emanuel, Gibson Dunn, Davis Polk, Kirkland, etc etc etc- i.e. none. The fate of the second tier law school student (second meaning outside the top 15 or 20 - yes, it is that stratified - remember there are far fewer law schools than undergrad schools) has been a subject of much talk lately. If you don't believe me, please google "Loyola2L", who is now a legend of the internet.
Sam speaks the truth. If you want to practice law at a big firm, it's way easier to get in from a top ten school than trying to make law review at a second tier. U of H used to be the exception to the rule. Decent big firms in Houston would hire outside of the Top 10 percent, reaching down fairly far into the top quarter of the class. Those days are gone. Our rankings dipped at the same time that big firm salaries skyrocketed, as suddenly kids at Harvard and Penn decided Houston wouldn't be so bad at 160K a year. Combine this with tort reform, and it's a bad time for those of us who want to be litigators when we graduate.
I think it kind of sucks, insofar as 2nd tier law schools are selling their students a deceptive bill of goods. OCI's from tier 2 schools publish these ridiculous starting salaries from their starting classes - without telling you that that only includes the 10-20% of graduates who chose to respond to the survey at all, while the rest were busy still sending out resumes after graduation. It's a very rude awakening I imagine if you forked over 100,000 over 3 years for your Seton Hall law school degree only to realize that you've got to hustle to make 50k your first year out living in Jersey City working a crap job that you didn't envision. It's really quite deceitful. Universities love law schools because they are big money makers. High tuition, low overhead (not like you have to pay for a lab or anything). They are profit centers. But who is profiteered off of? There was a big to-do about Cal-Irvine and its new law school and its new dean a month ago. THe question that only a few people aasked and should have asked was "why do we even NEED yet another law school? " very good question and one that nobody answered. (again, google "Loyola2L" and see any of his posts on the WSJ Law Blog or Abovethelaw for more info on this issue).
How do you get a Texas A&M graduate off your front porch? You pay for the pizza. What did the A&M graduate say to the UT graduate upon meeting? Hi! Welcome to McDonald's, may I take your order please?
I recall the good old days then. I knew a lot of people from my law school class that went on to slave endless hours in the library at a big firm. Then there was the guy that went on after graduation to work for the PTO in Virginia. I was not that guy. I went on to hone my craft at a small firm and then went out on my own. The plus side is that I have logged a TON of courtroom time in a fairly successful practice.
This thread went from a guys future, to arguing, to tshirts, to boobies, to law school rankings, etc... Keep it going!
GPA is important but it seems like this kid is pretty smart so even though his gpa will dip w/ an engineering major, im sure he'll do fine on the mcat. its my understanding that med schools place more weight on the mcat bc its a standardized national exam. there are different grading systems out there and some school are harder than others. yes you may have a 4.0 in bio but that doesnt guarantee youll get into med school. also if you dont get in youre stuck w/ 2 options. 1) become a teacher or 2) become a researcher. if you ever decide to have start a family, its going to be hard financially. thats why i think it would be best to do his first 2 years at HCC then transfer to UH and major in engineering. His AP credits and HCC classes will float his undergrad GPA so that when he applies to med school his GPA will remain competitive. but the engineering major acts as a safety valve just in case he doesnt get in.
This is very good advice. Actually, if your goal is to get into med school and you don't care about the social aspects of your college choice, then why not go to Baylor for undergrad? Isn't their pre-med program better than the one at A&M (my GF says she chose Baylor over free rides at UT and A&M for that reason)? Also, if the goal is to go to Baylor medical school then going to the undergrad can't hurt (I'm assuming).
Sam, How does that change if you don't want to work/slave for a big firm? Tons of guys from my undergrad (Morehouse) get into all of those top schools that you mentioned, but I would say 30-40% of them prefer to go into business for themselves or do something else. Also, is it similar to the business world, where once you get a good internship then you're set?
do you think I could get into UT being in the top 10.xxxx percent(seriously I am in between top 10 and top 11) with a 4.5 GPA and test score of 29(ACT)? extracurriculars are nothing to brag about...AT ALL.
I'd still try to go to Rice if you can get in. I went to Washington University which is almost an identical school. The coursework wont be that much more difficult than A&M or UT. Ive used to take summer courses at UH. Although the intensity at Wash. U. was much higher, at the end of the day, you gotta learn the same material no matter what you are studying. I also did pre-med, so I kinda know what you'll be getting yourself into. Bottomline is that Organic chemistry is the same at every school and you'll have to work your butt off to get good grades no matter where you go. However, at Wash. U., I was surrounded by some of the most brilliant minds in the country. You are put in an environment where you are constantly getting challenged to the core. Its rough to go through, but looking back on my experiences, I learned more than I could have ever hoped for. I dont think I would have gotten that same push had I gone to a larger school. Therefore, I'd try to get into Rice...and if that doesnt work out, I'd look into spending 4 years in Austin. Cant go wrong there. P.S. I'd suggest dental school over medical school. But thats a whole 'nother topic.
I don't know many law school grads who go into business for themselves their first year out, getting clients is the hard part. But obviously there are other options (public interst jobs etc). Generally if you get a good summer associate gig, assumng you have a pulse and don't vomit on some partner's wife, you are set for the next few years. After a few years that fades and it comes time to do something else (jump to another firm and try to make partner there, go in house, leave the law entirely, etc) unless you want to be one of the few who stays on partnership track at their old firm for the full 8.25 years.
I have the exact same GPA as u do; it is exactly 4.500 haven't taken the ACT yet, but gonna take it oct. 27th .. as for the guy who suggested going to Rice, money starts to be an issue here.. Tuition @ Rice is a crapload of money, and if I want to focus on studying, working wouldn't be for me, and there is a maximum for student loans, it's like 180,000, so I would reach that max in the last year of Rice (approximately), but I would have 6-8 more years to go now if I get a scholarship to Rice (pfft, very unlikely), that's a different story.. but seriously, u guys got me thinking twice about A&M.. even though I know that half of the people are naturally biased against it because they are longhorns, but still, not encouraging.. Austin is just too far away for me I guess...
Okay, if you gotta take out loans for Rice, then forget about it. Luckily, I didnt have to take out loans for undergrad, but dental school was a different story. Tuition around $55,000 per year for 4 years, not including living costs. So, save up as much as you can during undergrad just in case you have to go to a private grad school. And Im neither a Longhorn nor an Aggie...but I have plenty of friends at both. I just think the people at UT are a little bit more liberal, like me. Not to mention, Austin is 1000000000 times better than College Station. EDIT If you feel like Austin is too far away, then its no sweat. Hit up A&M and kick ass in school.
