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FT: Intelligence backs claim Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. FranchiseBlade

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    Is the one case you are talking about the (non)attempt to buy Uranium? Or do you mean WMD in general?

    Neither are the same. Tony Blair most likely is lying as well, or perhaps he only believes what he wants. I don't recall the Clinton administration saying that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake, or Chirac.

    If you mean WMD's in general, then that's another case. All of the groups you mentioned believed that Saddam had them. This is where wisdom, leadership, values, morals, and principles come into play.

    Despite believing that there were WMD's there none of these other leaders except Blair were willing to rely solely on the reports that said they did and rush into starting a war. Other leaders held onto the ideal that war should be a last resort only. They listened to the intel that said Saddam wasn't a threat, and were willing to explore other options in dealing with the dictator.

    Only Bush and Blair were willing to abandon the principle that war is a last resort, or wait for further and more concrete proof. They were willing to sacrifice young Americans and Brits as well as sacrifice the moral high ground, the values, and principles of justice, democracy etc.

    I don't consider family values being willing to send family members to die when it's not necessary.
     
  2. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    No, I supported Bush throughout the action in Afghanistan as that was a war that needed to be fought. The action in Iraq and the subsequent revelations regarding WMDs (or lack thereof) as well as the Plame affair are what turned me against Bush. Bush has lied about a great many things, it has just turned out that he might not have actually LIED about the yellowcake.

    And for posters like yourself to defend him at every turn, seeming to stick your head in the sand even when people in the administration commit felonies.
     
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Please basso, you walk around with a large satchel full of monkey dung, no better or worse than the rest of us, gleefully hurling away, starting thread after thread, with the same singular bent. Your high horse is made of simian feces.
     
  4. FranchiseBlade

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    Basso, Bush has lied. Members of his administration have lied. Rumsfeld claimed that he knew where the IRaqi WMD were and pointed it out on a map.

    Condi Rice said that the aluminum tubes IRaq bought really could only be used for ONE PURPOSE. She claimed the purpose was nukes, but it turns out not to be true. That's a lie

    Bush claimed that Iraq was withing in 6 mo. of a nuke and cited an IAEA report that didn't exist. When questioned on it, he claimed that he got the reports mixed up and cited another report. Guess what? That report didn't exist either. On his third attempt to explain they claimed it was a third report. The third report did in fact exist, but it didn't exist until after the President had made his initial claim.

    Even if the President was only mistaken, and the initial statement wasn't a lie, then the followup attempts to cover this misktake/lie were definitely lies.

    Dick Cheny just recently was shown on the Daily show of all places claiming to not have a made a statement pertaining to IRaq. immediately after that statement, they showed Cheney saying word for word what he claimed he never said.

    They have LIED.

    I don't use this forum to gleefully label someone a liar. I post that he lied, because his lies are matter of record. They are out there for all to see. I remember you or someone when talking Bush's IAEA report lie, that there was a report out there that made the same claim. Yet in Bush's cover up attempts they never mentioned the report that was being refereneced. There were three attempts to cover it up and not one of them listed a possible defense.

    Again he either lied from the get-go, the coverup attempts, or all of them.

    Nobody has been able to defend against Condi's lies, or Dick Cheney's.

    Maybe Rumsfeld was just horribly wrong about knowing where the WMD were, but is it better to have someone so incompetent making those kinds of mistakes when our country's good name, and soldier's lives are the line?

    So again, calling someone out on a lie when there is evidence to back it up, isn't being meanspirited, or getting personal, it's pointing out the facts, and it's straight talk. Nothing more.
     
    #24 FranchiseBlade, Jul 12, 2004
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2004
  5. basso

    basso Member
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    the only liars here are joe wilson, and the lying liars who keep trying to turn this story into a leftish cause celebre.
     
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    You mean the Justice Department and its ongoing Grand Jury Investigation of the crimes committed by the Bush Administration w/respect to Wilson? Are they the lying liars?

    Muddle, divert, ignore..

    It's getting boring basso. You should just give up trying to salvage this sunken ship.
     
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    more on this later, but it's highly questionable whether any crime was committed, since the "exposer" would have to a) know she was undercover, and b) the government was taking "affirmative measures to conceal" her relationship to the CIA. it seems quite clear, in light of wilson's own PR campaign that the latter standard won't be met. no, wilson is the liar, and so are you to the extent that you, rim, josh, et alia continue to try and prop this up.
     
  8. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    That's just a claim. FranchiseBlade gave you details, and most of them are pretty convincing. Care to respond to them?

    If you say those instances were no outright lies, then your only recourse is to claim MASSIVE incompetance, e.g. Bush doesn't know an IAEA report from the sports section.
     
  9. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    You keep forgetting that Bush doesn't read the paper. :D
     
  10. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    d'oh! Okay, then...

    ... he doesn't know the IAEA report from a bag of pretzels? :confused: That's even worse, because they're made of different materials and have very different shapes. :(
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Your armchair speculation is at glaring odds to the length and depth of the investigation.
     
  12. Woofer

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    Looks like a large percentage of every thing we saw pre-war in the press was the result of a plant by Chalabi and friends, and the subsequent spread of memes as gospel without any backing proof.

    http://www.cjr.org/issues/2004/4/mccollam-list.asp

    .
    .
    .
    INTO THE ECHO CHAMBER
    Qanbar’s comment raises the issue of just how pervasive the ICP’s influence was before the war. By implication his statement denies that the INC was connected to a second defector — code-named Curveball — provided to German intelligence, who was a prime source for Powell’s mobile-labs statement at the UN. But intelligence sources have repeatedly asserted that they believe Curveball to be the brother of an INC official, something the group continues to deny. In a front-page story for the Los Angeles Times last month, Bob Drogin reported that intelligence sources he spoke with now suspect that the INC fed defectors to at least eight foreign intelligence agencies to create an echo effect among Western governments. Whether that proves true or not, there is no doubt that the INC achieved something similar in the Western media. In addition to writing the articles appearing on the list, reporters frequently went on talk shows to talk up their stories. Rose, for example, made at least two appearances on the Today show, to discuss the more alarming aspects of his pieces. Even Mark Bowden, whose Atlantic article had little to do with WMD, jumped into speculation about Saddam Hussein’s terrorist training camps while being interviewed on NPR — though his story contained no information about such camps.

    .
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    .
     
  13. IROC it

    IROC it Member

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    And Kerry has "no time" for the terrorism briefings.

    If your the President... that's pretty much part of "the paper" in your life.
     
  14. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    IIRC, Wilson didn't start his "PR campaign" until AFTER the administration officials committed a crime by outing an undercover CIA operative.

    The lying liars are clearly the people covering for the criminals in the WH, your unfounded speculation doesn't change that.
     
  15. basso

    basso Member
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    Lord Butler's report further supports the iRaq/Niger connection, and underscores what a partisan, lying hypocrite wilson and anyone else is who continues to try and defend this nonsense. the tragedy here is that the kontinuing kerfluffle over whether the admin "outed" valerie plame obscures what should be a major story about saddam's confirmed attempts to purchase uranium from niger. shouldn't that be news?

    The Butler report

    --
    45. From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:
    a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
    b. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.
    c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium and the British Government did not claim this.
    d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it. (Paragraph 503)

    --

    there's also this info on WMD. knowing this, would you feel safer had we just left him alone?

    --
    a. Had the strategic intention of resuming the pursuit of prohibited weapons programmes, including if possible its nuclear weapons programme, when United Nations inspection regimes were relaxed and sanctions were eroded or lifted.

    b. In support of that goal, was carrying out illicit research and development, and procurement, activities, to seek to sustain its indigenous capabilities.

    c. Was developing ballistic missiles with a range longer than permitted under relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions; but did not have significant - if any - stocks of chemical or biological weapons in a state fit for deployment, or developed plans for using them. (Paragraph 474).
     
  16. Woofer

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    We invade Iraq because they allegedly visited Niger for inferior nuke materials and that's why we leave Iran and North Korea with nuke production facilities alone?
     
  17. basso

    basso Member
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    from lord butler's report and the senate intelligence (isn't that an oxymoron?) committee report:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB108985293686064360,00.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

    --
    Saddam, Uranium and Africa
    July 15, 2004

    From the "Review of Intelligence on Weapons of Mass Destruction" chaired by Lord Butler, published yesterday by the British House of Commons (a related editorial appears nearby):

    493. In early 1999, Iraqi officials visited a number of African countries, including Niger. The visit was detected by intelligence, and some details were subsequently confirmed by Iraq. . . .

    494. There was further and separate intelligence that in 1999 the Iraqi regime had also made inquiries about the purchase of uranium ore in the Democratic Republic of Congo. . . .

    497. In preparing the dossier, the U.K. consulted the U.S. The CIA advised caution about any suggestion that Iraq had succeeded in acquiring uranium from Africa, but agreed that here was evidence that it had been sought.

    498. The range of evidence described above underlay the relevant passage in the Prime Minister's statement in the House of Commons on 24 September 2002 that: "In addition, we know that Saddam has been trying to buy significant quantities of uranium from Africa, although we do not know whether he has been successful."

    499. We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government's dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush's State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" was well-founded.

    500. We also note that, because the intelligence evidence was inconclusive, neither the Government's dossier nor the Prime Minister went on to say that a deal between the Governments of Iraq and Niger for the supply of uranium had been signed, or uranium shipped.

    501. We have been told that it was not until early 2003 that the British Government became aware that the U.S. (and other states) had received from a journalistic source a number of documents alleged to cover the Iraqi procurement of uranium from Niger. Those documents were passed to the IAEA, which in its update report to the United Nations Security Council in March 2003 determined that the papers were forgeries. . . .

    503. From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:

    a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.

    b. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible.

    c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium and the British Government did not claim this.

    d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.

    From page 46 of the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee report published last Friday:

    The CIA's DO [Directorate of Operations] gave the former ambassador's [Joe Wilson's] information a grade of "good". . . because the information responded to at least some of the outstanding questions in the Intelligence Community, but did not provide substantial new information. He [the reports officer] said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had travelled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting. . . .

    DIA [Defense Intelligence Agency] and CIA analysts said that when they saw the intelligence report they did not believe that it supplied much new information and did not think that it clarified the story on the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal. They did not find Nigerien denial that they had discussed uranium sales with Iraq as very surprising because they had no expectation that Niger would admit to such an agreement if it did exist. The analysts did, however, find it interesting that the former Nigerien Prime Minister said an Iraqi delegation had visited Niger for what he believed was to discuss uranium sales.
     
  18. basso

    basso Member
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    and the WSJ's lead editorial today:

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005354

    --
    The Yellowcake Con
    The Wilson-Plame "scandal" was political pulp fiction.

    Thursday, July 15, 2004

    So now the British government has published its own inquiry into the intelligence behind the invasion of Iraq, with equally devastating implications for the credibility of the Bush-Blair "lied" crowd. Like last week's 511-page document from the Senate Intelligence Committee, the exhaustive British study found some flawed intelligence but no evidence of "deliberate distortion." Inquiry leader Lord Butler told reporters that Prime Minister Tony Blair had "acted in good faith."

    What's more, Lord Butler was not ready to dismiss Saddam Hussein as a threat merely because no large "stockpiles" of weapons of mass destruction have been found. The report concludes that Saddam probably intended to pursue his banned programs, including the nuclear one, if and when U.N. sanctions were lifted; that research, development and procurement continued so WMD capabilities could be sustained; and that he was pursuing the development of WMD delivery systems--missiles--of longer range than the U.N. permitted.

    But the part that may prove most salient in the U.S. is that, like the Senate Intelligence findings, the Butler report vindicates President Bush on the allegedly misleading "16 words" regarding uranium from Africa: "We conclude also that the statement in President Bush's State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that 'The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa' was well-founded." (Click here for more excerpts.)

    We're awaiting apologies from former Ambassador Joe Wilson, and all those who championed him, after his July 2003 New York Times op-ed alleging that Mr. Bush had "twisted" intelligence "to exaggerate the Iraqi threat." The news is also relevant to the question of whether any crime was committed when a still unknown Administration official told columnist Robert Novak that Mr. Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was a CIA employee and that's why he had been recommended for a sensitive mission to Niger. A Justice Department special prosecutor is investigating the case, with especially paralyzing effect on the office of the Vice President.

    In that New York Times piece, readers will recall, Mr. Wilson outed himself as the person who had been sent to Niger by the CIA in February 2002 to investigate claims that Iraq might have been seeking yellowcake ore for its weapons program. Vice President Dick Cheney had asked for the CIA's opinion on the issue after reading a Defense intelligence report.

    Mr. Wilson wrote that "It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place." He claimed he informed the CIA of his findings upon his return, was certain reports of his debrief had circulated through appropriate channels, and that the Administration had chosen to ignore his debunking of the story.

    After the Novak column appeared, Mr. Wilson charged that his wife was outed solely as punishment for his daring dissent from White House policy. To that end, he has repeatedly denied that his wife played a role in his selection for the mission. "Valerie had nothing to do with the matter," he wrote in his book "The Politics of Truth." "She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip." A huge political uproar ensued.

    But very little of what Mr. Wilson has said has turned out to be true. For starters, his wife did recommend him for that trip. The Senate report quotes from a February 12, 2002, memo from Ms. Plame: "my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity."

    This matters a lot. There's a big difference both legally and ethically between revealing an agent's identity for the revenge purpose of ruining her career, and citing nepotism (truthfully!) to explain to a puzzled reporter why an undistinguished and obviously partisan former ambassador had been sent to investigate this "crazy report" (his wife's words to the Senate). We'd argue that once her husband broke his own cover to become a partisan actor, Ms. Plame's own motives in recommending her husband deserved to become part of the public debate. She had herself become political.

    Mr. Wilson also seems to have dissembled about how he concluded that there was nothing to the Iraq-Niger uranium story, serving for example as the anonymous source for a June 12, 2003, Washington Post story saying "among the Envoy's conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because 'the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.' " There were some forged documents related to an Iraq-Niger uranium deal. Trouble was, such documents had not even come to the intelligence community (never mind to Mr. Wilson's attention) by the time of his trip, and obviously hadn't been the basis of the report he'd been sent to investigate. He told the Senate he may have "mispoken"--at some length we guess--on this issue.

    The Senate Intelligence Committee found, finally, that far from debunking the Iraq-Niger story, Mr. Wilson's debrief was interpreted as providing "some confirmation of foreign government service reporting" that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger. Why? Because he'd reported that former Nigerien Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki had told him of a 1999 visit by the Iraqis to discuss "commercial relations," which the leader of the one-industry country logically interpreted as interest in uranium.

    Remember that Messrs. Bush and Blair only said that Iraq had "sought" or was "trying to buy" uranium, not that it had succeeded. It now appears that both leaders have been far more scrupulous in discussing this and related issues than much of the media in either of their countries, which would embarrass the journalistic profession, if that were possible.

    All of this matters because Mr. Wilson's disinformation became the vanguard of a year-long assault on Mr. Bush's credibility. The political goal was to portray the President as a "liar," regardless of the facts. Now that we know those facts, Americans can decide who the real liars are.
     
  19. basso

    basso Member
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    Novak speaks!

    http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20040715.shtml

    --
    Errant former ambassador
    Robert Novak
    July 15, 2004

    WASHINGTON -- Like Sherlock Holmes's dog that did not bark, the most remarkable aspect of last week's Senate Intelligence Committee report is what its Democratic members did not say. They did not dissent from the committee's findings that Iraq apparently asked about buying yellowcake uranium from Niger. They neither agreed to a conclusion that former diplomat Joseph Wilson was suggested for a mission to Niger by his CIA employee wife nor defended his statements to the contrary.

    Wilson's activities constituted the only aspects of the yearlong investigation for which the committee's Republican chairman, Sen. Pat Roberts, was unable to win unanimous agreement. Peculiarly, the Democrats accepted the evidence building up to the Wilson conclusions but not the conclusions themselves. According to committee sources, Roberts felt Wilson had been such a "cause celebre" for Democrats that they could not face the facts about him.

    For a year, Democrats have been belaboring President Bush about 16 words in his 2003 State of the Union address in which he reported Saddam Hussein's attempt to buy uranium from Africa, based on official British information. Wilson has been lionized in liberal circles for allegedly contradicting this information on a CIA mission and then being punished as a truth-teller. Now, for Intelligence Committee Democrats, it is as though the Niger question and Joe Wilson have vanished from the earth.

    Because a U.S. Justice Department special prosecutor is investigating whether any crime was committed when my column first identified Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, as a CIA employee, on advice of counsel I have not written on the subject since last October. However, I feel constrained to describe how the Intelligence Committee report treats the Niger-Wilson affair because it has received scant coverage except in The Washington Post, Knight-Ridder newspapers, briefly and belatedly in The New York Times and few other media outlets.

    The unanimously approved report said, "interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD (CIA counterproliferation division) employee, suggested his name for the trip." That's what I reported, and what Wilson flatly denied and still does.

    Plame sent out an internal CIA memo saying that "my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." A State Department analyst told the committee about an inter-agency meeting in 2002 that was "apparently convened by [Wilson's] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue."

    The unanimous Intelligence Committee found that the CIA report, based on Wilson's mission, differed considerably from the former ambassador's description to the committee of his findings. That report "did not refute the possibility that Iraq had approached Niger to purchase uranium." As far as his statement to The Washington Post about "forged documents" involved in the alleged Iraqi attempt to buy uranium, Wilson told the committee he may have "misspoken." In fact, the intelligence community agreed that "Iraq was attempting to procure uranium from Africa."

    "While there was no dispute with the underlying facts," Chairman Roberts wrote separately, "my Democrat colleagues refused to allow" two conclusions in the report. The first conclusion merely said that Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife's suggestion. The second conclusion is devastating:

    "Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided."

    The normally mild Pat Roberts is harsh in his condemnation: "Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the President had lied to the American people, that the Vice President had lied, and that he had 'debunked' the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa . . . [N]ot only did he NOT 'debunk' the claim, he actually gave some intelligence analysts even more reason to believe that it may be true." Roberts called it "important" for the Intelligence Committee to declare much of what Wilson said "had no basis in fact." In response, Democrats were silent
     
  20. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    This is a totally bogus rationale for revealing the identity of an undercover CIA agent. If the Administration had a problem with Wilson's statements they should have rebutted what he said. In stead, they demonstrated a remarkable disregard for national security by revealing her identity, whether it was for revenge or to bolster their case against Wilson.

    George Tenet said the uranium statement never should have been in Bush's speech. He said the CIA did not have strong enough evidence to support this claim. That's why Bush cited British intelligence.

    If the British claims weren't based on the forged documents, what were they based on and why didn't the CIA have confidence in their evidence?
     

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