Hard statistical reports are hard to come by, but I think it's pretty clear that the Tibetans are heavily divided, with the monks and a segment of lay society, usually the less privileged ones, against the Chinese rule, and another large segment of Tibetan lay society, who had more successfully integrated into the Chinese mainstream, support the status quo. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-tibet18mar18,1,5822703.story By Ching-Ching Ni, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer March 18, 2008 BEIJING -- A Chinese shopkeeper in Tibet's capital came out of hiding Monday for the first time since mobs ransacked his herb store last week, during the biggest uprising against the region's Chinese rulers in nearly two decades. Ma Zhonglong, 20, said he had had nothing but a few packets of instant noodles to eat since he ran for cover Friday when he saw hundreds of Tibetans smash and burn storefronts near the Jokhang Temple, the religious and geographical heart of Lhasa. "I went outside and saw people fighting on the street," Ma said in a telephone interview. "I hurried back and closed the door. Through the glass window I could see the mob rushing toward me. They carried knives, stones, sticks. I ran farther back into this courtyard to hide. Outside I could hear them smashing everything." Monday morning, as Ma emerged and found his store in ruins and expensive herbs looted, the Chinese government had taken control of Lhasa and ordered all rioters to turn themselves in by midnight or face serious consequences. A calm descended on the regional capital today after a week of protests that had turned violent and spread to three nearby provinces. Even the Chinese capital saw demonstrations, with dozens of students at the Central University for Nationalities gathered for a candlelight vigil amid heavy security. Chinese authorities, weary of bad publicity in the run-up to the Beijing Olympics in August and eager to avoid any reminder of the violent 1989 crackdown on pro-democracy protests by students at Tiananmen Square, offered a portrait of official restraint during the effort to restore order in Lhasa. They blasted the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, accusing him of fueling unrest. "There is ample fact and plenty of evidence proving this incident was organized, premeditated, masterminded and incited by the Dalai clique," Premier Wen Jiabao said today at a news conference. "This has all the more revealed the consistent claims by the Dalai clique that they pursue not independence but peaceful dialogue are nothing but lies." The Dalai Lama, a Nobel laureate who fled Tibet in 1959 after a failed uprising and runs an exile government in India, has denied any role in inciting the violence. He accused the Chinese government of cultural genocide in Tibet. Champa Phuntsok, government chief in Tibet, who was in Beijing today attending the annual meeting of China's parliament, denied that soldiers used lethal weapons or excessive force. Rioters, he said, set fire to more than 300 homes and shops, leaving at least 13 civilians dead and 61 police officers injured. In one instance, Phuntsok told reporters, rioters doused a civilian with gasoline and set him on fire while others knocked out an officer and cut a piece of flesh from his buttocks. Aides to the Dalai Lama have put the death toll at 80. There was no way to independently verify the conflicting tolls because Beijing forbids foreigners to visit Tibet without official permission. Witnesses said Lhasa had been turned into a war zone, with both sides suffering casualties. "I saw mayhem everywhere: Tibetans throwing rocks, setting fires, people running scared like cats and dogs," said a 27-year-old migrant worker from Sichuan province, who was told to stay home by his employer. "The Tibetans were looking for Han Chinese to kill, adults and children. "Somebody told me they suspended these Chinese schoolboys from the beams inside the Jokhang Temple, to protest, I guess," said the worker, who requested anonymity and, like other Chinese in Lhasa, was interviewed by telephone. "It was very scary," said a 40-year-old Chinese man who works in a car dealership with an office near the temple. "There was fire and killing everywhere. When peace and stability is gone, ordinary people suffer." China's critics blame the unrest and the underlying ethnic tension on what they call the Communist regime's long-standing policy of cultural and economic strangulation. "It's normal for the Tibetans to hate the Chinese. You are on their turf, of course they hate you," said the migrant worker from Sichuan. Zhaxi Duoji is a Tibetan who runs the Tibet Cafe and Inn in southwestern China's Yunnan province. He organizes regular tours to Tibet but has put them on hold since the disturbances began. "I can say 90% of ordinary Tibetans are opposed to this kind of violence," he said in fluent Mandarin, adding that he is a Buddhist and not a Communist Party member. "The Chinese government's policy on Tibet is improving," he said. "Every country has a minority of people who want to go back to the past. That's based on ignorance. Many Tibetans are disadvantaged because they don't speak Mandarin, can't express themselves and are easily taken advantage of by other people." It remains to be seen how hard Beijing will clamp down on the protesters today after the midnight deadline for turning themselves in. Meanwhile, extra security personnel have been deployed to other regions of western China with heavy Tibetan populations. "I know the Communist Party will take care of everything by midnight and restore order," the migrant worker said. "But then again, how can we go back to normal with so many stores on so many streets burned and destroyed?" chingching.ni@latimes.com
I try to stay away from these threads, for everything has been said hundreds of times in this very board. But people like you never seize to amaze me, for you can reach new lows everyday. On this same board, if the same thing was said to any other ethnic group or any other country, strong vocal liberal leaders of this bbs will come out to condemn you in lock steps, to show how righteous they are. You sir, might be banned. But since we are talking about the evil red China now, you can continue to have your fun, as you cited "what an entertaining debate". BTW, the actual rape happened in Tibet in the past, were done by some spiritual leading lamas/slave owners unto Tibetan slaves.
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/07/13news.html His material highness FAR FROM HIS HOLIER-THAN-ALL IMAGE, THE DALAI LAMA SUPPORTS SUCH QUESTIONABLE CAUSES AS INDIA'S NUCLEAR TESTING, SEX WITH PROSTITUTES AND ACCEPTING DONATIONS FROM A JAPANESE TERRORIST CULT. BY CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS | The Dalai Lama has come out in support of the thermonuclear tests recently conducted by the Indian state, and has done so in the very language of the chauvinist parties who now control that state's affairs. The "developed" countries, he says, must realize that India is a major contender and should not concern themselves with its internal affairs. This is a perfectly realpolitik statement, so crass and banal and opportunist that it would not deserve any comment if it came from another source. "Think different," says the ungrammatical Apple Computer advertisement that features the serene visage of His Holiness. Among the untested assumptions of this billboard campaign is the widely and lazily held belief that "Oriental" religion is different from other faiths: less dogmatic, more contemplative, more ... transcendental. This blissful, thoughtless exceptionalism has been conveyed to the West through a succession of mediums and narratives, ranging from the pulp novel "Lost Horizon," by James Hilton (creator of Mr. Chips as well as Shangri-La), to the memoir "Seven Years in Tibet," by SS veteran Heinrich Harrer, prettified for the screen by Brad Pitt. China's foul conduct in an occupied land, combined with a Hollywood cult that almost exceeds the power of Scientology, has fused with weightless Maharishi and Bhagwan-type babble to create an image of an idealized Tibet and of a saintly god-king. So perhaps the Apple injunction to think differently is worth heeding. The greatest triumph that modern PR can offer is the transcendent success of having your words and actions judged by your reputation, rather than the other way about. The "spiritual leader" of Tibet has enjoyed this unassailable status for some time now, becoming a byword and synonym for saintly and ethereal values. Why this doesn't put people on their guard I'll never know. But here are some other facts about the serene leader that, dwarfed as they are by his endorsement of nuclear weapons, are still worth knowing and still generally unknown. Shoko Asahara, leader of the Supreme Truth cult in Japan and spreader of sarin nerve gas on the Tokyo subway, donated 45 million rupees, or about 170 million yen (about $1.2 million), to the Dalai Lama and was rewarded for his efforts by several high-level meetings with the divine one. Steven Seagal, the robotic and moronic "actor" who gave us "Hard to Kill" and "Under Siege," has been proclaimed a reincarnated lama and a sacred vessel or "tulku" of Tibetan Buddhism. This decision, ratified by Penor Rinpoche, supreme head of the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism, was initially received with incredulity by Richard Gere, who had hitherto believed himself to be the superstar most favored. "If someone's a tulku, that's great," he was quoted as saying. "But no one knows if that's true." How insightful, if only accidentally. At a subsequent Los Angeles appearance by the Dalai Lama, Seagal was seated in the front row and Gere two rows back, thus giving the latter's humility and submissiveness a day at the races. Suggestions that Seagal's fortune helped elevate him to the Himalayan status of tulku are not completely discounted even by some adepts and initiates. Supporters of the Dorge Shugden deity -- a "Dharma protector" and an ancient object of worship and propitiation in Tibet -- have been threatened with violence and ostracism and even death following the Dalai Lama's abrupt prohibition of this once-venerated godhead. A Swiss television documentary graphically intercuts footage of His Holiness, denying all knowledge of menace and intimidation, with scenes of his followers' enthusiastically promulgating "Wanted" posters and other paraphernalia of excommunication and persecution. While he denies being a Buddhist "Pope," the Dalai Lama is never happier than when brooding in a celibate manner on the sex lives of people he has never met. "Sexual misconduct for men and women consists of oral and anal sex," he has repeatedly said in promoting his book on these matters. "Using one's hand, that is sexual misconduct." But, as ever with religious stipulations, there is a nutty escape clause. "To have sexual relations with a prostitute paid by you and not by a third person does not constitute improper behavior." Not all of this can have been said just to placate Richard Gere, or to attract the royalties from "Pretty Woman." I have talked to a few Dorge Shugden adherents, who seem sincere enough and who certainly seem frightened enough, but I can't go along with their insistence on the "irony" of all this. Buddhism can be as hysterical and sanguinary as any other system that relies on faith and tribe. Lon Nol's Cambodian army was Buddhist at least in name. Solomon Bandaranaike, first elected leader of independent Sri Lanka, was assassinated by a Buddhist militant. It was Buddhist-led pogroms against the Tamils that opened the long and disastrous communal war that ruins Sri Lanka to this day. The gorgeously named SLORC, the military fascism that runs Burma, does so nominally as a Buddhist junta. I have even heard it whispered that in old Tibet, that pristine and contemplative land, the lamas were the allies of feudalism and unsmilingly inflicted medieval punishments such as blinding and flogging unto death. Yet the entire Western mass media is uncritically at the service of a mere mortal who, at the very least, proclaims the utter nonsense of reincarnation and who affirms the sinister if not indeed crazy belief that death is but a stage in a grand cycle of what appears to be futility and subjection. What need, then, to worry about nuclear weaponry, or sectarian frenzy, or the sale of indulgences to men of the stamp of Steven Seagal? "Harmony" will doubtless kick in. During his visit to Beijing, our sentimental Baptist hypocrite of a president turned to his dictator host, recommended that he meet with the Dalai Lama and assured him that the two of them would get on well. That might easily turn out to be the case. Both are very much creatures of the material world. SALON | July 13, 1998 Christopher Hitchens, a columnist for Vanity Fair, is a regular contributor to Salon.
Whether Parenti's opinion or that of two researchers he paraphrased isn't really relevant. If his article is loose with the facts then it has credibility problems both for his conclusion or that of the researchers you apparently say he copied from. I don't have to read the original paper to determine that. So China inherited Tibet? Well, that's good to know. I'll be sure and tell the 'Native Americans' here in the US to stop griping since we pretty much inherited or bought North America from the governments of England, France, and Spain. Defending China or the Chinese annexation of Tibet as somehow democratic? That's rich. Thanks! Deckard pointed out a specific passage which was loose with the facts and clearly shows a pro-Chinese slant. That gives credence to the claim that Parenti has an agenda. That doesn't mean every claim he makes is false, just that you have to take his conclusions with a grain of salt, as you would a statement from the Dali Lama, for example, since he also would have a particular slant.
majority of the world were annexed at some point in the past. and if you think that's going to end, you must be naive. the west have taken up so much part of the world by force, how the hell is that democratic? what we learned from this is that, when the west take other parts, they kill most natives so no one will rebel. while when China take other parts, the population grows. and now the west are like, oh we want everyone to be democratic. let's split all of them up. and b**** about them for being bad. how can you even argue about anything given you are living in the land where you don't belong?
Funny how he's grasping at straws, isn't it? All you have to do is read Parenti to see either a slant towards a view he simply likes (as opposed to the facts), or incredible laziness writing his own book. Parenti decided to distort the facts. Claiming he was simply quoting two researchers is disingenuous to the extreme. He uses the quote to present a view that furthers his hypothesis, but is simply untrue. "They enjoyed neither dramatic industrial expansion nor high per capita incomes nor extensive family planning programs. The factors they had in common were public education and health care, a reduction of economic inequality, improvements in women's rights, food subsidies, and in some cases land reform. In other words, fertility rates were lowered not by capitalist investments and economic growth as such but by socio-economic betterment, even of a modest scale, accompanied by the emergence of women's rights." How can someone read that (or more to the point, write it) and keep a straight face? It is nice to see you here again, Hayes. Things have been fairly crazy lately, so no real change. Impeach Bush. Don't Let Him Drive the Bus.
LOL, padding yourself on the back much? Hypothesis? whatever that is, it's not about China. In fact, Take China -which he lumped in lazy writing -out, then let's see your critique. That's how academic works. But yeah, it's about I win I win. It doesn't really matter though. Twilight zone? Seeing how the line was already drawn for some posters as soon as such topic brings up, I'd say we are always in it, in stead of just entering.
I do think forcible annexation is on the wane. That is fact, rather than naivete. Who said it was? The Chinese complex constantly whining about the West is getting really old. Welcome to the 21st century. Stop using the past as an excuse to justify actions that don't make a whole lot of sense. C'mon, be serious now. The population in Tibet has grown because the PRC imported a bunch of Chinese into the territory. That's pretty disingenuous of you. Generally, being oppressive is bad - yes. That the West has been oppressive doesn't change that. The West has had slavery. Does that mean they shouldn't now say slavery is bad? No. That would be silly. Some places used to have human sacrifice. Does that mean those people shouldn't now say human sacrifice is bad? No. Again, that would be silly. That's a dumb argument. I can argue about anything because I live in a place where the government doesn't monitor what I read or browse on the internet, because I live in a place where the government isn't shipping in five million immigrants to overwhelm the local culture. Has the West done similar things in the past? Certainly. As above, does that mean it shouldn't be criticized today? Absolutely not. Thanks, Deckard
Some other people have used the use same logic to argue that the Chinese posters have no right to complain about the Japanese horrendous atrocities in WWII because of other unrelated events that have happened in China. Actually, there is a poster (I can name him if you want) who has joined almost every single Nanjing thread and used this tactic to attack anyone who complained about the Nanjing massacres. What did you say at that time?
Let me put it for you again, that specific passage Deckard jumped on (which he claimed "patently false") is facts-based, and conclusions drawn upon are legitimate. There is no "playing loose with facts" whatsoever. Without reading the original article which Parenti cited and without disproving the facts upon which the said conclusions were drawn, you and Deckard are in NO position to discredit it. You guys may have some other legitimate reasons -- which I have yet to see -- to gripe about with regard to Parenti's opinions, but in this specific case, you and Deckard are simply barking up the wrong tree, and displaying wistful ignorance, on top of laziness and lack of reading comprehension. Glad to be of help, any time. LOL ... your "collective white men's guilt" over the gross mistreatment of Native Americans is duly noted. Too bad you guys have only paid lip service, but never truly repented. A concrete measure and substantive remedy would be immediate disintegration of the country currently known as the United States of America, giving back all your occupied land to the Native Americans, and depending on the wishes of the Native Americans, descendants of other ethnic groups may have to return to the countries where their ancestors came. But even after your guys have done all of these, Tibet will still remain in China. The distinction is that Tibetan-Chinese are not Native Americans. One does not "invade" or "annex" what is already one's own territory. Tibet has been part of China for more than 7 centuries and has never been seceded. Deal with it.
FYI I think White man's guilt is a made up phenomena by reactionary right wingers in defense of their egotism and ethnocentricism. By using it you lose a lot of credibility to me. Kind of like the idea that political correctness if a left problem or new problem caused by leftists—where in reality political correctness exerted by the left in the US might seek to belittle you, political correctness exerted by the right (e.g., McCarthyism) sought to imprison you or worse. Perhaps the most practical solution is somewhat like having a reservation or territory of Tibet within China (mix of self rule and special rights within a larger government). I hope China can do it better than we have—where the conditions are better and more equitable in Tibet relative to the large society than for many minority and Indigenous groups within US history, or even some places in the US today (Canada is some better though). But the Chinese Gov needs to back off a bit, give the Dalai Lama and Tibet more space--otherwise they will continue to look bad in the global perspective and maybe measures (if more symbolic--Olympic protest) against them. The steamrolling approach against a primarily peaceful and motivated minority dissident group doesn't look too good any way you slice it.
Your first point is well taken, but with all due respect, I don't think political correctness, one way or the other, of the usage of "White Man's Guilt" has anything to do with the topic of Tibet. Some missteps aside, PRC has done nearly the same as what you suggested to help the Tibetans keep up with the rest of the country's development and advancement. But it doesn't matter what PRC does -- short of letting Tibet to secede, China-antagonists (mostly New Age hippies, as some fair-minded Brit recently put it) in the west will always have something to bash PRC. If the Tibet were left undeveloped and dirt poor, they would blame PRC willfully neglects Tibet while the rest of the country thrives. Otherwise, they would scream "culture genocide" blah blah blah, as you see right now. "Primarily peaceful"? Excuse me, if chopping half of a head off innocent civilian is considered "primarily peaceful," what does it take to be "somewhat peaceful," "neutrally peaceful," "somewhat agitated," ... "partially violent," and "hellish violent"?
