French to Ban women covering face

Was going to be my point :grin: And to think that Islam is the only religion in whose name violent atrocities have been committed, probably not a Christian...hopefully...

 

I'm sorry, are you under the impression that I'll engage in some kind of conversation about religion with you?

 

uh....


pot, kettle??

how about you don't go around stereotyping one group of people's beliefs because you are offended when someone does it about a different group of people?

 

Intolerant atheism? At least I respect Hinduism and Buddhism. I have no problem with some of the Bible teaching and Christians/Catholics who don't kill or do stupid thing in the name of their religion. Why can't Islam become more tolerable like the Christians?

 

Don't understand where the angst is coming from. Was pointing out the irony of the situation if he in fact turns out to be a Christian...

 

We should probably stick to the religion doing the vast majority of the killing currently. I think all religion is based on stupid concepts but only one religion comes to mind when I hear about bombs going off in Western cities.

 

no angst, just noting that

is effectively stereotyping.

based on his comments in this thread, he could just as easily be Christian, Hindu, Native American, Martian, God himself for all we know...

 

but can't you say the same about a nun's Scapular

 

I don't think it's fair to have this discussion without pointing out the role of religion in public life in France (which is to say there isn't one). This law is about defending laïcité

The French are much more interested in freedom from religion than they are freedom of religion. Religion is something that is considered private and hidden from public view. It's taboo to even talk about religion in public life.

The French notion of freedom of religion is VERY different than the American one. I personally don't like the law, I think it's unjust and very patronizing to Muslims, but this is France, not the United States, and the law makes perfect sense from a French point of view. That's just the way it is, and maybe if exercising your religion publicly is important to you, maybe you shouldn't immigrate to a country where it offends people.

 

Wasn't trying to stereotype, hence why I put the adjective "intolerant" in front of atheism. Many, many atheists are not intolerant of others' beliefs, but there is a select group that think all religions (and anyone who follow them) are stupid. Calling one religion's teachings "primitive fairy tales" seems to indicate a general lack of respect for the concept of religion, not specifically the Muslim faith, hence my guess.

I don't have a religion -- I'm borderline atheist myself. However, I try to respect each religion and realize that there are extremists in each. Because some Catholic Priests molest boys, I don't declare Catholicism to be the religion of molesting boys; likewise, because some Muslim extremists blow up stuff, I don't declare the Muslim faith to be a faith that dictates blowing stuff up.

Perhaps intolerance religion-wise is just not something I can fully grasp. In my opinion, all religions are simply faith-based, not knowledge-based, so I don't see how a follower of one religion could say another religion is based on falsehoods. Then again, those people probably think their religion is based on fact...

I'm not going to go out of my way like some here to condemn or make fun of an entire religion. To do so would just be intolerant of differences in faith/belief and that's just not my style I guess. I am, however, intolerant of intolerance if you want to find a modicum of hypocrisy in what I say.

 

The opposite of what you are saying is true. The problems they have nowadays in France do not stem from forceful integration into French society, but from a lack of efforts from both sides (French state and muslim immigrants) to integrate them into French society for decades.

 

More and more Islam hate.

Most of you don't know what this means.

 

Why are you so sensitive? Any criticism of Islam is "hate". Why are so many Muslims so overly sensitive about their religion? Is it because of indoctrination that anyone who questions something is an enemy?

 

Nope, it is easier to decry than to discuss.

At least Mathloom gives it a go, got to give him credit for that.

DD

 

Of course I'm against this law.

I find it funny that the people who cry hardest about freedom of speech, are also the one wanting These type of laws. That is just pathetic. Sorry, the election time here is starting and Wilders is getting on my nerves. He is such an advocate for free speech, but he does want the Quran banned

If they ever introduce such a law in the Netherlands I will start wearing a Burqa to public places. Out of protest. You cannot force people to abondon something they want to do according to their religion. Everybody knows that it is not about protecting the woman that are forced to wear these things. Most woman aren't forced to wear anything. And the few that are forced have a real problem now. Do you think that their husbands will change anything. Brilliant thinking France. Why don't you just join switserland.

I'm an atheist, and do not believe in a god, but people shouldn't force other people to change their religion, as long as they do not hurt others. What would the really conservative christians think if we banned Dresses.

These type of actions only drive peopel further away from each other. But some politicians want that because fear helps them get power .

p.s. SJC good luck tomorow, I will be rooting for Bayern.

 

Please take pictures and post them here .

I know that you have good intentions, but I think you are seeing things rosier than they are. I believe that a lot of women in these circumstances are forced to wear these. Maybe they don't rationalize it as such, but they do not have a free choice.

So you are saying one should not do anything because the oppressive husbands will get their way anyway. Hmm...

It does hurt others - it hurts the right of those oppressed women, and to be frank, it also prevents integration. According to the rules of these oppressive husbands, you and I cannot even have a conversation with these totally veiled women. Plus, how do you have a proper conversation with someone whose face you cannot even see. Veil and burkha are also symbols of not wanting to integrate into society (and accepting women's rights) at all - by the choice of the husbands, not of the women.

You strike me as one of the people who have a liberal mindset (good) but who are so tolerant that they will promote tolerance and do not realize that it goes so far as to help the intolerant ones expand their position of intolerance.

 

they should ban the kippah as well


and

the turban

 

No problem, you wouldn't even recognize me :grin:

I have to disagree with you here. We cannot know if the woman want it themselves or not. I believe most of them agree with this choice, it is there culture. You think most do not have a choice of their own. We cannot be certain who of us is right. So since we cannot be sure it is not their free will, we shouldn't force them not to wear them.

No I’m saying that if the reason is helping the woman that are being oppressed, this is not the way to go, since we Force those woman to either upset their oppressing husbands, or getting fined. It is a lose lose situation for them. If you want to help them do it another way in which you do not create a conflict which can only hurt the woman you want to help.

Again this depends on whether you believe the woman are forced to wear the veal or wether they do it out of free will.

I have no problem having a conversation with someone who's face I cannot see.

I disagree that they are symbols of not wanting to integrate. I believe media and some politicians made it symbols for that. For those people they are symbols of their religion/culture. I have no problem that people who move to another country keep some of their culture. I would do the same if i moved to another country. I know many of the Dutch who move to another country try to maintain much of their culture. Of course you should adapt. But you should not have to abandon your entire culture.

Maybe, I believe that is not the case.
I dislike these laws since they only target a specific group of people (discrimination), only Muslims. The one thing I do not like is the attitude against Muslims in many western countries. Islam is sort of the new communism, everything is wrong with it, and they are the new enemy

The same thing goes for not wanting religious artefacts on people who have a public function. I do not agree with that, but if people want to ban religious artefacts/clothes they should do it for all religions (so also no crucifix necklace etc.)

I believe you and some among the people who support this law do have the good of the woman in their mind. If the woman are forced to do things against their own will, then people should try to help them. However I believe this is not the way to help them. And these type of laws only create more diversion and anger. So people should think about what they try to achieve with these type of laws. But like i said I do not believe most woman are forced to wear them. It is just a cultural thing. And I dislike the attitude of many people in the west that our culture is better than other cultures. There are also many flaws in the western Culture (for example greed, and how we treat our elderly)

People should try to understand people have different cultures and try to respect that. I have to say that goes for all people not only Europeans and Americans. We should focus on the things that make all people the same and not focussing on the few little differences IMHO.

 

I don't know about that, I've had plenty of conversations with veiled women (in class, library, outdoors, etc.)

It's not our place to decide what they can and cannot do. It's not as if France is not doing them a service, if they want to wear the headgear than they should be allowed to, simple as that.

 

I know plenty of women who wear the niqab (veil) and I know for a fact that they are not forced to do it. They do it because it is part of their religion/culture. They also might have another personal reason, such as not wanting to be checked out by guys (and we all know what goes on in a guys mind once he checks out a hot chick)