Do you also denounce the culture of oppression and ignorance that leads to a lot of women feeling they need to dress up like prostitutes every time they go out in public just to get any positive attention? Or is that culture ok, because it's the one you're part of?
Huh? Which culture is that? So if my significant other goes out in a hot dress she's "looking like a prostitute?" I don't think that tack furthers your argument.
That post was more revealing (about where you are coming from) than the clothes you are referring to.
I think I sort of get what he is saying. Consider that in our culture, and pretty much every culture, we are judged by what we wear and women who do dress very conservatively are judged also. At the same time woman often say that they feel the need to dress sexily in order to succeed both culturally and professionally. Consider the thread in Hangout praising Dominque Sachse. Now if she regularly wore a mumu do you think she would have nearly the following that she does? I won't go so far as to say women are forced to dress in a certain manner and this certainly isn't a matter of law but our culture does pressure women to dress in a certain way. In fact that we are considering wearing things like Niqabs, Burkha's or even Hijabs as controversial shows that we have certain cultural expectations on women's fashions.
I still don't get it. My SO dresses very professionally for work. Usually a suit, that sort of thing, but away from work she dresses however she likes. No, she doesn't dress like she did for many years when she was much younger, but that's a reflection of age and the toll of the years on her figure (I still like her figure!), not anything to do with culture. At least not that I'm aware of. Of course, I met her in the middle of a quite different, hedonistic era that we both enjoyed very much. So sure, I'd say popular culture influenced her mode of dress back then. No bra, jeans cut off just below her butt. It was a good time to be living. I don't think anyone was "damaged" by what they wore, either. No one forced anyone to wear the things we wore back then. If anything, the clothes, or the lack there of, were an expression of rebellion against established authority.
Everytime Deckard posts, I think of this book :grin: : Deckard, you should read it if you haven't already.
I haven't read it. Thanks for the heads up! As everyone knows, I really loved the counter-culture years of the 1960's and early '70's. I still have a vivid memory of going down a street in my Triumph Spitfire with the top down, and this drop dead beautiful chick is riding towards me on her bike, one of those bikes with the handle bars you have to bend over to steer. She was wearing a peasant blouse that was low cut, without a bra, and was simply stunning. I waved and she smiled at me. Good times!
Yes, exactly...which is one of the reasons that wearing it also needs to be sanctioned, because only that way, you might get to the bottom of it sometimes (e.g., imagine the husband coming to the police to complain about the penalty, because obviously she would not be allowed to handle this on her own).
you don't think that there's a certain aspect of our culture that leads women, especially young women, to believe that the way they look plays a big role in who they are? woman are led to believe that the ideal standard for them is to be a certain size and to look a certain way. just check out any thread in the hangout where woman are discussed and how many times people say "would not hit". how many stories do you hear of high school girls battling bulemia or anorexia so they aren't considered overweight? recently, there was even a no-make up week as a protest to what has become a cultural norm in our society. from the link:
as an aside... on the train this morning, I saw a group of middle aged asian women dressed up in Hello Kitty Garb. Very disturbing. I thought....there oughta be a law.... carry on.
Of course there is societal pressure. Back in the day, we thumbed our collective noses at it, and in this country you have a great deal of freedom to do that. Not unfettered freedom, depending on the situation (like going to a high school in a conservative school district, for example), but vastly more freedom than a lot of the countries in which women are placed in a certain role in society, whether they like that role, or not, and not women in high school, either. Grown women, like those you see on any sidewalk in any American or European city. Saying those American and European (or Asian, whatever) women are "dressing as prostitutes" is quite a different idea, don't you think? I'm going to disagree with that everyday, and twice on Sunday.
I was going to defend my post, but I think rocketsjudoka and Groogrux did a good job of expressing much of what I was trying to say.
Currently, I don't respect your opinion on this issue because I feel it's motivated entirely by anti-Muslim bigotry. You seem to think that you know what is best for all Muslim women, regardless of what they actually want. If they are more comfortable wearing a burqa in public, you want to tell them that it's because they're brainwashed by their culture without being willing to admit that many western women are just as brainwashed into trying to fit some mold of how a woman should behave. I would respect your position if you instead presented it like this: (1) telling women what they can and cannot wear takes away some of their freedom to choose for themselves, (2) telling women they cannot wear a burqa in public if they wish to is one such example of curtailing a woman's freedom, (3) you are willing to restrict the freedom of women who want to wear a burqa because you feel the benefit of the ban -- other women no longer being forced to wear the burqa -- outweighs the cost of some women losing this freedom.
yea that is interesting, I heard another argument from a western lady and a women wearing a burqua, the western lady was saying you are oppressed, you are ashamed to show your face, the burqua said, no one forces me to wear it, i feel safe, I like the focus on my words and my mind, its empowering for me, and don't tell me I am hiding my face, when you have your own sort of burqua covering your face with make up, lip stick ,and all kinds of chemicals or surgeries to cover yourself, hide insecurities, be accepted and appealing to the men...so yea the pressure and focus on 'covering' your face is not just as simple as a veil when over here we have different ways of covering our fears, hiding ourselves, and women having to cover there natural selves where as men don't have to wear make up or any of that. Different cultural ,different sort of coverings
If you re-read the thread, that is the argument I made from the very beginning . (Obviously, I posted a lot more words and articles than just that. But your description above is accurate.) Edit: To back up what I posted above (now that I am back at a computer): Here is my post where I basically said the same (post 176 in this thread). http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=5316393&postcount=176
You haven't answered the question. I anticipate that you will either claim to be drunk or that you conveniently don't believe it's a worthwhile question.
