Europe has had problems with their crappy immigration laws, and have been letting way too many poor Algerians and Moroccans live in their countries in ghettos, refusing to assimilate and more or less rejected/sneard at by society at large. The Muslims in France are living in similar conditions as African-Americans did in the past decades in America. They are pretty much stuck in poverty because of low levels of education, and are a perfect 'recruiting ground' for extremists who want to capitalize on those disenfranchised youths who are full of 'anger' and hostility. Although not as bad as in France, England has some of these problems, but not nearly as much. A disenfranchised, large minority bloc that knows they are 'different' and feel isolated from society at large is not the same as Catholics in a Christian-majority state. Similarily, being a poor White American is not the same as a poor Black American; it's a different social context all together. However, if you remember from my posts in the past, I have been very critical of the immigration policies pursued by some European countries, not because of the 'ethnicity' of the people they are letting in, but rather because, for the most part, if you are struggling to make ends meet in your own country and are not at least armed with a good education to make use of in your adopted country of choice, you're going to be stuck in a vicious cycle of poverty that likely your own kids and their kids will find themselves stuck in, especially with all those social policies France has in place that encourages the poor, one might argue, to stay poor and just 'adapt'. IMO, France is in for a rough ride...
I don't think it's that France doesn't want to assimilate them, rather France let them do as they please instead of forcing them to assimilate. These groups can go into France and basically stay in enclave's of their own culture. Just a thought, but perhaps if France didn't have such generous social benefits they would be forced to interact a lot more in the economy than they currently do.
You wouldn't know, because I am assuming you're a White Christian. Tell that to a 'brother' and then see what reaction you'll get. Of course you 'fail to see' it.
How did the boat people from Vietnam make it? They didn't speak english and only had the clothes on their back. Most people didn't accept them back then. Yet they manage through hard work and determination to put their kids through college, and be productive members of society. If they didn't want to assimilate into Americana, there are enclaves like Chinatown where these immigrants stay their whole lives. Where is the Little Saigon riots? It's ridiculous to cause havoc, because you're upset about life. Do something to make a positive effort. Go to trade school, start a Pho restaurant, sell bootleg dvd, etc. Nope. Blame the country that took you in. Ingrates.
I agree rioting is stupid, that's why I called them 'thugs'. The thing is non of their 'grievances' have to be real, they could be imagined or a mere perception of reality, or what someone else told them was the case. The bottom line is: many of them believe it. Just to draw some parallels, let me give you an example. Following the Katrina disaster and the perceived 'slow' reponse by the government, of those polled by the Washington Post/ABC News, 60 percent of African Americans believed race was a factor in the federal government's slow response. Is that perception or reality?
Yep. the problem is, these immigrants, expect everything handed to them on a silver plater. the concept of work and earning you're money dosent go down to well on them.
This brings to mind the resentment of blacks in this country of "The Model Immigrant" leading up to and after the race riots. I would say that the situation is quite different though because in America, the environment is conducive to any hard working immigrant being able to prosper. I don't know that that is so much the case in Europe. The immigrants that have come here for the most part have come with one thing in mind - prosperity through hard work or education. It's the same with all different ethnicities that come here. I don't know that those same values are present in Muslim Europeans.
I think a more constructive way to examine this issue (and a parallel one to it in our own country) is to ask the following question: How do we go about breaking this 'cycle of poverty' that seems to have a strong hold on those communities? How do you forcibly 'assimilate' a group of people (understand that America is different from France in that we don't assimilate other cultures, but instead celebrate our diversity and promote multiculturism, while the French are very ethno-centric and reject multiculturalism)? I am interested in hearing some of your thoughts about this.
Yep, exactly. Note that since welfare reform and such programs were put in place in America, it seems like the "underclass" is less of a problem than it was in the $80s. Europe is still living with very generous welfare states. That is probably simplifying the issue a bit. Those who say that extremist Islam isn't a part of this are jumping the gun a bit too quick. I bet lots of the rioters hold extremist views.
My idea was the welfare state idea. In America, you CAN'T live in your ethnically segregated enclave. That will lead to poverty and no opportunity. Look at Mexican immigrants- they want to work as much as possible and have their kids get every opportunity. I'm not sure the same desire is in the minorities in France.
The 'class' of immigrants from Muslim countries that migrate to the US, generally speaking, is much more affluent (wealth-wise and especially education-wise) than those migrating to Europe. The one thing we're overlooking here is the fact that the majority of those French Muslims are NOT 'migrants' themselves, but the sons of migrants who know no other home than France. In other words: they're 'French' born and raised.
No. i have Relatives in Europe who have thrived through hard work and education. you cam be successfull anywhere if you have the right mindset.
Very possible, because violent and extremist messages do tend to find place among the 'alienated' and the 'resentful'. I saw a documentary once about those very ghettos in France that we are hearing about in the news today, only that documentary was a few years back. After watching it, I was amazed at the similarities between our ghettos and theirs; I am talking about prostitution, drugs, gang violence, the whole nine yards. In short, they had the same conditions/struggles as Americans living in the ghettos, and were just as angry at the system for what they perceived was society's attempt to 'keep us down' (similar tp rhetoric used by poor minority Americans).
This might be oversimplifying it a bit, but we get the "cream of the crop" in America. Mexican immigrants work their asses off so their kids can have a better future. Many South Asian and Asian immigrants come with student visas and immediately enroll in graduate programs. Arabs generally come with alot of money already in their pockets. America is a mixture of the brightest and best of the best. Like you said earlier, the cycle of poverty continues. In America, you basically can't tell the difference between your average white Joe and second generation immigrants (those kids who are in their 20's now who's parents came in the 80's).
I understand, that is why I said 'generally speaking' (which almost always means that I am about to make a gross overgeneralization)
I dont care if they feel betrayed.. there no excuse Whatsoever for this kind of public voilence. what are the trying to achive? burning busses, building, shops and so on. all they are doing is alianting the mainstream french population from there cause. lot more constructive ways to show you're dissapointment then this . public disobidence is 1. this is certiantly not.
As I said, it's common thuggary, but after seeing that documentary I refered to above, I can't say I am surprised (much like I wasn't at all suprised by the LA riots).
And most of the riots during the civil rights era were triggered by a single event, like say a cop killing someone. Riots don't start out of the blue but usually are long simmering waiting for some triggering act. As far as riots in other countries slums not being political you must not being that familiar with riots in slums whether from Brazil to the Philipines to France they're almost always political.
