Freedom of religion for non-Muslims in Islamic countries

Those countries are not Islamic.

- No kings allowed in Islam.
- No compulsion of religion allowed in Islam.
- No domestic abuse allowed in Islam.
- No difference between a native and a non-native in Islam.
- No leaders approving sale of alcohol in Islam.
- No government without a transparent treasury in Islam.
- No leader without a parliament in Islam.

I can go on forever. The only reason you think those countries are Islamic is because the DICTATOR says so. Conveniently, most of the population considers themselves Muslim - but their Islam doesn't include dictators.

Unless you acknowledge that:

1) Countries don't exist in Islam and can't begin to exist IN Islam.
2) There is certainly no such thing as an Islamic Country today.

We can't really discuss unless you see that.

Take for example:

The KINGDOM of SAUDI Arabia. This means, literally, the property in Arabia of the Al Saud family.

It's like saying the Kingdom of Obaman America.

Can you then go on and say that these countries meeting the principle of Islam/Democracy which states that all men and women are equal in this world? Certainly, a king is not equal to his property.

Oh, and btw, Dubai is not a country.

 

The only explanation I can offer is that it is a cultural element, rather than a religous one.

 

There are several churches, buddhist places of worship, Hindu places of worship, etc.

Certainly, there isn't total freedom of religion unfortunately, but it seems to be improving rapidly (upward progression).

25 years ago, nothing was allowed. Now there are more than a few churches who have websites, do Sunday prayers, etc.

Previously, Ramadan days were shorter just for Muslims, now it's for everyone (not sure if this fits in the same category).

Looking good.

 

Ok... please understand this..

The Muslims in the predominantly Muslim countries have absolutely NO CONTROL on what their government does.

 

Though this is true, it's not a an excuse because all people historically come from a culture which was ruled by a dictator. Some more recently than others, but ultimately, everyone else was able to shed that part of the culture.

Also, Islamic culture doesn't have dictatorship. Arab culture does have all the elements of dictating the tribes based on power.

 

you know I guess especially in the current events its easy to associate Islam as a closed religion of intolerance. You have to go back centuries before when they were in rule and flourished to see the essence of the rule, it was the same book, the same religion, but there were no suicide bombings or anything of that sort. Think of the moorish rule, or during the Fatimid area. Islam held one of the prime first examples of all three religions coexisting and living under muslim rule with tolerance and acceptance of eachother and there was no force conversion and they were immersed together. THe house of wisdom spoke about God's intention for human's to use our intellect and broke boundaries and pushed limits in fields of astronomy and mathematics, science, medicine. So how can you simply write it off due to to day's political issues as a problem religion when all you have to do is see some of its history, some of its contributions and you can see the true essence.

Its unfortunately simply defaced by probably less than one percent of the religion as a whole, they are the face of it in the media today and its unfortunate as this leads to the clash of ignorance on both sides. This is as if the IRA could represent all the catholics, or the KKK who consider themselves religious in some cases representing all of Christians. All of the groups have their extremist and those that interpret the book in a way of negativity, yet they don't deserve to represent the religion do they.

I was recently in the middle east and a friend of mine asked me, why did everyone over there do that with the Muhammad pictures? He is sacred to us and such an important part of our religions and hearts, you don't have to believe in him or care for him, but atleast simply as human's cant we respect something so sacred to the other. I understand we have freedom of speech, we can say anything we want, but that freedoom, liberty, is a privledge and that which comes with responsibility. Its like if some guy started saying don't ever speak of my mother this way, so now to excersize your right of speech you create a facebook group defaming her and calling her a w**** so forth, he may throw threats, so you get everyone at it, and now there you go you've proved you have freedom of speech and you've insulted someone's sacred matter. Is that dumb on his part, or is that dumb on the idiots throwing out threats? Ofcourse, they are ignorant idiots who have no place anywhere as well, but then it becomes ignorant on our part too to insult something simply sacred and so meaningful to someone just because to prove we can to piss of a couple idiots who are completely wrong in their responses as it is. But sometimes just because we have the right, doesn't make it it right. Its a responsibility and we should use our hearts and minds to act accordingly, not sink down to their level.

 

The largest muslim country in the world is pretty secular. Indonesia

 

This is only one area of Indonesia. Its lumping everyone in America into one bucket because of the crazy stuff that happens only in one state.

 

Coptic Christians are as a whole treated with kid gloves compared to Muslims in Egypt, are you kidding me?

Here is one instance: The government in Egypt picks the leader of the Al-Azhar university, which is the religious body which issues decrees and fatwas in Egypt and much of the Sunni world. This was done just a month ago when the grand mufti passed away, despite strong protests from Al-Azhar scholars and your everyday Egyptian Muslims. The paradox is Egypt is a secular state, and yet has always been highly oppressive of Muslim rights in Egypt, they won't even let Muslims elect their religious leaders!!! They have to picked by the state.

Now, on the flip side? The government of Egypt would not dare intervene into the Coptic Church's internal affairs and they give the Christians democratic rights they would never, ever grant the Muslim majority.

The fact is, in today's Egypt, if you are a Muslim man and you decide to grow a really long beard and the government determines you have that "look" about you absent any other evidence, they will randomly arrest you and round up other people around you, probably torture you, and then force you to confess something you never were to begin with. The same can NEVER be said about a Coptic Christian in Egypt.

Here is also what you seem to be missing: staunch secular (not Islamist) states have been some of the most oppressive in terms of freedoms in what we loosely call the Muslim world. In the case of Egypt, while Christians absolutely DO have the right to freedom of religion and they are granted their holidays and Egyptians even join in for celebration of some of the Christian holidays in the country, you have to admit it is laughable to request more freedom for a minority group when the majority are also equally oppressed, and in fact suffer more government-sanctioned repression than their minority counterparts.

The fact is, in today's Egypt, Muslims have been pissed off at their own government for what is perceived to be deference and freedoms granted to the religious minority while the majority is denied some of those same basic powers for decision-making. The fact is, in today's Egypt, Al-Azhar is largely viewed as the personal instrument of the state in a bid to influence religion, while the Coptic Church is viewed as a truly independent religious body.

The only democratic bubble existing within Egypt is in the Coptic Christian community, which has the right to run their own affairs. Us Muslims? Foggeddaboutidd!

 

LOL! I love how you create this conjecture and run with whatever you think I am saying but in fact I never actually said. And you wonder why everyone sees you for the disingenuous ass you are? :grin:

I am saying Muslims in Egypt aspire to the same rights and deference granted to the Copts to be also granted to Muslims in Egypt. To you, of course, any Muslim demanding democratic reforms can only be doing so to institute an Islamist agenda and start beheading Copts ASAP!

Oh, and random attacks on Copts have nothing to do with the government's treatment of Copts. Ethnic violence takes place in every single country in the world, carried out by random civilian idiots or villagers. Would you like for me to quote you a rap sheet of all ethnic attacks or hate crimes carried out within Germany over the same period of time? I can only guarantee you it is probably ten-fold the number of hate crimes committed in Egypt.

 

how can you say that these countries simply represent islam's ethics. There are political, economical, and social issues that for this very day that shape their choices and they simply all don't represent the religion. As I said, you can go through a rich history of the moors with a rule of tolerance, the house of wisdom, the focus on education, tolerance, and progression during these periods of islamic rule. This was way back when, it was the same book, so why weren't they ridiculing 'infidels' and so on? There is just more to it to look at the current actions and say that islam is fundamentally a negative religion when its history shows otherwise, I am sure you can nitpick instances showing otherwise, but can't we do so for judaism and christianity as well? The point is that neither of those represent the positive message of the religion, but the political or whatever else connected agenda that had come to develop during certain times and led to a different response. Its a clash of ignorance and misunderstanding on both sides.

I'd recommend you look up interviews perhaps with the Aga Khan a Muslim leader with interesting viewpoints and answers for the roots of many of these misunderstandings. Best of luck

 

This is a great post, and I have made the comparison to what Islam is going through now to what Christianity went through in the Dark Ages.....

The fringe element gained in notoriety, atrocities were done in the name of religion and eventually the moderates took over and pushed the fringe elements to the side.

DD

 

I am in agreement with you absolutely. To be perfectly honest, I misinterpreted your previous post as you wouldn't be very receptive to my point. Its obvious you are articulate and educated, but I felt you had a point of view and you were set on it. I am glad you elaborated and I read on to see that I see very much eye to eye with you. I come from a religious Muslim family, read the books so on. I am also a proud born and bred American. I completely feel those terrorists and extremist are a problem to our country, to other countries, but to even our own religion as they have somewhat successfully got their message across and began to deface the religion and although they represent less than one percent of muslims, they have become the face.

Its unfortunate and its important to learn about our history and about the true message, I think the cordoba house can acheive(mosque and interfaith center being built to spread the peace values of islam in ny next to ground zero) but it is being received today with such criticism of a 'house of evil' and its just unfortunate. Muslims worked in the WTC and died there that infamous day as well. Those guys aren't Muslims and they just don't represent us, they are against us as Muslims as they are against us as Americans. I am in complete agreement with you that they are a problem that needs to be dealt with, but we can't pay them the respect to let them represent the religion as a whole like they want to. They win in this.

Imagine Catholic's being represented by the IRA or Christians as a whole being represented by the KKK, small extremist groups that represent less that one percent of the religions population just like extremists for islam. However they are certainly a problem, and a problem to muslims around the world too. I look back in stories I have read where they tried to keep women from going to school so forth. Islam is about learning, its about equality. there are scriptures that say things for a certain context of that time and there is reasoning behind that, and there are things from all the scriptures as they are from a different time. They also clearly state the intent of peace, of equality for all people of all faiths and also that of all genders, it also talks about the emphasis of man's intellect, the importance of education these progressive values that flourished in Muslim rule centuries ago that led to advancement in the maths, sciences, etc and set up a society of freedom of religion and tolerance that set the path to what we are blessed with here in America.

Yea he was married to a German girl, but rather than focusing on that or perhaps that he looks Caucasian(ha, you'd be surprised on how many people are hung over that and stick to these points), if you read his interviews, his answers on islam, you will see some very encouraging and promising answers to many of our questions. And with your capability to articulate and hold point, I would love for you especially to be exposed to this and learn about these haha. All the best.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,442180,00.html

http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html

 

yea there are many different interpretations of the text and thats why you will see different sects, overall the general idea is the same and while some consider ismailis different or other parts different, thats just a sad agenda and a bad mentality to have in my opinion. We should look for commonalities and not find issues and within us but appreciate the common ground between us(within islam, within humanity of all the religions actually) and respect the differences. Its simply counterproductive to do otherwise.

I had the pleasure of reading the scripts in Judaism and the Bible and its surprising of the similarities and interesting qualities of all the 3 major religions. Nonetheless I believe all of them and many other religions are all bout respecting human kind and tolerance and progression and set a moral ground for us in which to live in together and in a more productive and harmonious way, yet its sad that we with our political, social, or economical agendas whatever the reason seem to use the religions which I believe essentially to be pure themselves and almost manipulate them for our agendas. But hopefully we can educate our selves and take progressive steps, as individuals and as a society. I truly appreciate your reception and response, feel free to contact me with any more questions as well. Cheers.