Doctor Robert: Actually everyone remembers everything they see, smell, hear, etc. Everything is stored in our brains somewhere - it is just a matter of recall. Those with photographic memories, for some reason, can tap into everything much easier. I have known people like that and they really do not enjoy it. The only reason all of those laser discs would weigh so much is because they are solid - knowledge weighs nothing. We know nothing of the limits (or limitlessness) of our brains. That is scary enough.
I just wanted to illustrate the fact that the amount of information this guy could recall was unbelievable. Memories take up space in the brain and it would seem that the brain could fill up at some point, but it hasn't yet. Check this out, we do know a lot about the brain, I'm not sure what we know about it's limits. Read the "Building a Database" section: http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950717/950717.cover.html
I would like to apologize for continuing this thread and then disappearing, but I was extremely busy yesterday soon afterwards. I couldn't possibly cover every point and issue raised here, but let me attempt to tackle a few with my limited knowledge of things. First, I believe that a person's experiences and study of this broad subject determine and unequivocally reflect the direction of one's beliefs and knowledge of the subject. My own personal expereience comes from both study of different philosophers and philsophies of many world religions, as well as direct experience of subjective, intangible forces, both human and I believe otherwise. With that, I contest that the single most important thing in any human beings lifetime is to attain knowledge of the true reality of themself. In other words, to form a belief based on first hand knowledge and experience. To go on a journey to find God. On this journey, at some point, the individual will come to a realization on the nature of reality. This is both a dynamic as well as continuous process throughout the course of one's life. So what I am saying is that if you don't go looking for the truth, you don't hold any credibility in my book. Of course, I believe that this is ingrained within the nature of man, and that nearly every one of us has gone on this search, to some extent. Why is this important? Because without this desire to search for the reality of our existence, the indiviual will have a very vague idea for his purpose in life. The answer to the question: "Does God exist?" governs every aspect of our life. This in turn creates the individual's lifestyle, and the way in which they choose to live. Does God exist? This is the ultimate question, and no individual should be satisfied during their lifetime, unless they have answered this question for themselves. To leave it at, "I don't know, or maybe, but if something changes my mind in the future", is not good enough. One should form a definite opinion, but at the same time, never become closed to any future knowledge that may change your current stance. This open mindedness is extremely important if one wishes to reach any truly Enlightened state. ............................. No matter who you are, no one person's explanation of the reality is the way all things are. Some philosophers usually put the nature of reality in very ambiguous terms and state that the this reality is very complex. Others simplify. I think we can all agree to the nature of reality as being remarkably simple, it is described in a few short statements: 1. There is a reality that we can all perceive, the universe, or creation as I like to call it, exists and includes all that is out there...everything on Earth, all humans, the sun, moon, stars, galaxies, superclusters, etc...EVERYTHING. Whether we agree our universe is the only universe, or if it is fixed in mass, or if it is continuously expanding/contracting, or whatever the case may be, the universe is our direct reality and as we imagine it and talk about it, we talk about the same universe/reality/creation. 2a. This reality/universe/creation came into being randomly by itself. OR 2b. A divine being CREATED this reality/universe/creation. Gotta cut this short...will continue later. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
The Universe: Our Reality As humans, we perceive this physical universe using our bodily senses via our brain. These senses however do not always satisfy us beyond our basic needs. There is a part of us that needs to be satisfied by all types of social interactions as well as subjective intangible feelings like love and happiness. We also perceive other feelings like hurt, anger, and fear which are not basic instincts of animals. These things are not part of our physical reality in this universe, but rather occupy either another part of our reality or another dimension to our universe/reality/creation. WHy have the most influential people in history been Prophets and spiritual leaders. Because they appealed to and satisfied this invisible, intangible, need of man to know the reality of their universe. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, and Abraham (peace be upon them all), Ghandi, Bhudda, even Einstein all helped mankind to better understand the nature of their reality and universe. More than 95% of man follows these people. Why? Humans are weak minded and need a crutch? How is satisfying a basic need a crutch? Is eating a crutch or is it an essential way to nourish and sustain your physical body? Is having a shelter for your body a crutch or is it an essential need for man to protect his body from harm in order to ensure a good future for that body. Is finding God to exist and following his instructions for the nourishment of the soul via good deeds/prayer/meditation and his advice on proction of that sould from harm of sins to ensure the future of that soul a crutch or a necessity and need for us? If God created us would he have left us without these instructions if he was truly beneficient? He would not, so he gave his message and instructions through these messengers. These people were all from among ourselves, they were not Angels or aliens, but humans like us. If I were to begin my journey to find God, I would begin by wondering, if He exists, then wouldn't he have given us some reason to our creation and purpose to our lives? So the first place to turn would be the world religions. To be continued.... ------------------ -Peace to the Believers [This message has been edited by RocketScientist (edited December 10, 1999).]
Plato, Will, and all... what happens after you die? Don't know? WEll...either: 1. Nothing 2. Something If 2, then: 1. We become part of the collective consiousness of life and spirits until we decide we want to experience a physical life again and come back to an Earth to live another life. 2.Immediately reincarnated into a new form of life because that's the way things are and always have been. 2. Become part of the Earth(dust/soil/vegetation) as our life force fuses with the environment around our grave and we become one with the Earth until our life force accumulates and eventually becomes great enough to reach self-consiousness in the form of some other animal. Unless Earth is destroyed in which case we wait for Earth's particles(and ours) to eventually fuse with another planet capable of supporting life or wait for our solar system to be destroyed and then eventually our particles will become part of some other solar system, world, capable of supporting life(billions of years?) 3. We go to our grave and are concious of the world around us via our soul until the end of time when we are reserrected, judged by God, and then sent to heaven or hell for eternity. 4. We are immediately judged by God and sent to heaven or hell. Please fill in the possibilities I have missed. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
Rimbaud, Evil. Why? I will edit this response to fill in the answer, outta time now. Sorry. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
Why are we here? So guys, what's our purpose? Is there one, or is it just that we have this golden opportunity, once in a trillion years, to have this gift of life, so we should live it to the fullest. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
RocketScientist: I will save the evil discussion for later (I am assuming you will ask a question or give your answer later - or was that a question?). As far as purpose, I will confess that I beleiev there is no devine or "grand" purpose - I do not think people are "put on this earth" to cure cancer or die or catch interceptions (sorry, something Dieon said...). Does that make life futile, I do not believe so. I feel that everyone should have the same goal in life - regardless of religion - and that is to grow, improve, and evolve (in every aspect of life). I do, however, think that the most sacred things in our lives should be our brains - they are far superior to anything else with which we come into contact. So much so that they can go beyond our bodies - causing (I believe) many situations that would reinforce a religious view). Is this coherent? I always write in a stream-of-consciousness form. Additionally, we are not that unique. People often suggest that we could not just be this big coincidence - that we had to have been created by a guiding force. But all life is a progression, It is not one coincidence, but many events feeding off of each other over an infinite (a whole argument on its own) amount of time. What does the evidence of basic life on Mars do to the religion/God issue? What about other planets, galaxies, etc. Did God create life there? This is getting worse as it progresses, I will end until discussion continues.
Funny, I could have sworn I wrote mind - I did not understand what you meant until I reread what I wrote...thanks.
For those of you in seek of guidance and The Truth, and are basically in search of religion, I suggest you study 'Islam' in detail. I myself have found through studies this religion to be the most complete, the most sensible in entirety. The religion itself is like a jigsaw puzzle...all of the peices seem to fit easily together, no contradictions. I suggest everyone of you to give it a try. You might find from it what I have. Jeff: I know you were just using this as an example within your argument, but I just wanted to extend on it: I think the media has painted an image of the modern Muslim as that of a terrorist, and this is a very dangerous stereotype that is arising within the society. The word "Islam" itself comes from the root word in English meaning "peace." Islam is all about peace, brotherhood, and these misconceptions should be cleared up. Islam is also the fastest growing religion to date and is on track to become the most populous religion in the world. Just look at our own Hakeem Olajuwon. He is a great example of what being a Muslim is all about. The man is humble, quiet, generous, thoughtful...the list goes on. I just encourage anyone in doubt to study Islam. It will answer a world of questions for you. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).] [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).]
Let me just try to give the Islamic stance on "God controls will.." etc. First of all, God created human beings as the greatest of all creatures. He gave them intelligence far superior to any other creature and most important of all, he gave them "free will." Human beings have been given the choice to make their own decisions with the intellect God has provided them. It is up to you what you do with your life. However, to clear up confusion, "GOD knows everything and about your destiny." You have a choice of what you want to do with your life, God does not control that, but he DOES know what will happen. Moving on.. Will, yes. God has the power, and does intervene at our request. Will, you have to understand this from an Islamic point of view. God listens to all prayers, my friend. Those poor, innocent people dyeing in Bosnia are praying left and right. God hears their prayers, and although it seems nothing is happening, their reward will come in the after-life. I know it may seem like a tough concept to understand, but to simply put it...this world is just a test for mankind. Human beings have to stay strong and have belief that God has the power to help them. God has said that every person will endure tests in this life. Some people have more difficult tests [ie: starvation] than others, but they must keep the faith. If they do that and have faith in God, their prayers will be counted in the after-life. Sometimes God chooses to reward you for your prayers in THIS LIFE by answering NOW...but I promise to you, your efforts are not in vain. Prayer to God for help counts towards the after-life. May God forgive me if I have said anything wrong. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).]
rimbaud, as I stated in one of my posts earlier, the universe, reality, and creation are all terms that are synonymous with one another. Our conversation on what the universe is or how it came into being relies on the premise that naturally, we are both talking about the same universe. Therefore, life on Mars does not really have anything to do with religion or God. These two things are perfectly compatible with each other. This would be the beginning of yet another topic however, 'God, evolution, and his relation to creation'. This particular arguement would be more of a side discussion which would not really affect the topic at hand, which is the existence of God. If GOd did create us on Earth, why would it be so difficult to create some on another planet? Besides, we would be classified as a 'higher' form of life, bacteria or invertabrates on Mars are just life, not consious beings with souls. Cab, at this point in time, it would probably be better not to throw one specific thought or religion out there as the answer to everything. What would be good, is to use perhaps the logic or philosophy from that religion as a source of your statements in this discussion. Please specify how it would relate, answer, or explain the topic......I do have to agree about the bad rap of Islam. It is completely unwarranted and simply propaganda by the Western media to try to create the next 'enemy'. I think that intelligent people don't listen to everything on TV/newspaper, and know the difference between a God fearing person who follows the FUNDAMENTALS of their religion (Muslim Fundamentalist) and one who murders and commits suicide (Muslim Extremist and really just plain lunatic, with Muslim just in there because that is how he was born). Like Rage Against the Machine says...they tried to blame it on Islam.... ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
Cab, Disregard my request to be more specific. Your message came in before I submitted the last one. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
Cabbage: Point well taken. I didn't mean to suggest all Muslims are terrorists, just to make a point. One note however on religion: it is very important to make a distinction between what is dogmatic (rules & practices) in a religion and what is spiritual. Ultimately, spirituality (in the case of religion, discovering the divine whether that be God, 'g'od, spirit, soul, prana, whatever, and our personal connection to what is devine) should be most important. All religions have that innate spirituality. It is our responsibility to determine that for ourselves. Unfortunately, many religions and practicioners get caught up in the dogma and forget about the rest. God knows (all puns intended) I have a number of friends who go to church and pray but have no real spiritual basis for their lives. They follow the rules but don't follow their hearts. So, to clarify my point on religous extremists, religion is what you make of it. Ultimately, God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Yaweh, Divine Mother are all the essence of what is best in all of us or love to be overly simplistic. If you choose dogma over karma (anybody seen that bumper sticker?), you ultimately find no happiness and that is what life is all about, no?
Cabbage: You are right(as the others have said) about the perception of Islam. The terrorism aspect has less to do with religion adn more to do with US foreign policy in the region dating back to the 40's. Islam is an interesting religion, but certainly not perfect. And, as Jeff said, just as susceptible to abuse and evil. RocketScientist: I agree, that was a side issue - I just threw it out (with the original intent to make a comment on the non-uniqueness of our world and lives). But what were you saying about evil?
Just wanted to chime in on one of the greatest threads in BBS history. I've been raised as a Baptist, but I've become increasingly interested in Deism over the years. A few years back, I was completely turned off by religion. Reviewing the sordid history of the Roman Catholic Church(this is not a slam on Catholicism, but rather its corrupt leaders during the Middle Ages), and seeing hypocritical television evangelists interested in nothing more than money made me sick. <U>The Inferno</U> didn't do much to raise my opinion of God either. I didn't exactly like the concept of having to worship and fear a God that didn't exactly do all that much for me. It seemed a lot like a bunch of savages fearing the wrath of some idol they created and sacrificing virgins to it. George Carlin's "God is the leading cause of death" comment on the Old Testament comes to mind. Some time later I began pondering what the nothingness of a godless afterlife would be. Maybe my mind is too simple, but I just couldn't imagine what it would be like to have the mental activity of a couch. Then the whole Creation aspect came in. If matter can neither be created nor destoryed, than where in the heck did all of this stuff come from? So I chose the simplest explanation possible. God created the Universe. While it may sound ridiculous to some, and it certainly raises questions of its own(for instance, who or what made God?) it provided a better answer for me to my question than an explosion in the middle of endless nothingness. Now, as just a Christian(not Baptist, Roman Catholic, or any other sect) I've found my own views on God with the help of some of a lot of different beliefs. I believe that God created everything, but I also believe in Evolution. I see nothing wrong with having those two concepts go hand in hand. I mean, why wouldn't God see fit to take a lower form of life and mold it into something more along His own image? I also believe that while God did give us free will, He is omniscient. He knows what decisions we will make, but if he sees fit He will alter His plan somewhat to answer our prayers. On another note, if you ask God for something long enough and truly want it, He will deliver. I hate the concept of fearing God. I try my best not to sin out of my love for Him and respect for His greatness rather than the fear of Him sending me to Hell forever. I elieve that if I'm a good person, do good things, and above all know and love God I don't have anything to worry about. On Divine Intervention, I do believe in it, but only when our decisions can actually destory us as a people. For instance, I believe he did play a role in not bringing the world to nuclear Armageddon back in the 60s. Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough for atheist views. Maybe the concept of a Godless universe scares me. Maybe I just want something to belive in. Whatever the reason, I like the basic Christian concepts the best. I respect all other religions, but some of them just don't do anything for me. That's why I also believe that the individual should choose his/her own religion after carefully reviewing other options. Sorry for the lengthy rant but just wanted to post from a Baptist-turned- Atheist-turned-Christian's point of view. [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited December 11, 1999).]
AntiSonic: The purpose of life is to never call yourself not intelligent enough. The myth that some people are more intelligent than others is just that - a myth. It is only a matter priorities. Besides, you are young and have plenty of time to solidify your beliefs. If I may, however, respond to your post: After one's initial refutation, there is always a period of reverting back to the original belief. It is human nature. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that it is a natural progression. Perhaps your beliefs are stronger because of your initial questioning. However, it sounds as if right now you are choosing convenience and comfort (it makes you feel better to beleive there is something). I will not argue this because it is your belief - just as long as you to not bash or persecute, etc (as you said you do not). All of the smart people are not atheist, all religious are not dumb. All we can try to do is be intelligent with our beliefs - whichever side they are. [This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited December 11, 1999).]
AntiSonic, Great post, I must say that your experience and knowledge seem to be carefully thought out. I respect your views and they very closely match mine, especially the part of evolution and GOd being able to coexist. This is truly a very important idea that people have to begin to understand to move forward both as a species, humankind, as well as to advance human's science and technology to the next level. Sure we are moving forward rapidly in the technology areas of the world, but both science and technology would be able to take leaps and bound if they were to work on the premise that there is a GOd responsible for what they investigate. This would help them see a bigger picture in many areas. By the way, I have a very good explanation and theory on the GOd + evolution theory and how they co-exist. If anyone wants to hear, I'll be glad to rant. Rimbaud, I didn't forget about evil and why, I'm just waiting for this discussion to get to that point. As far as what you said of Antisonic's possible 'relapse' into religion, it's equally possible that once an enlightened thinker gets to "what if there is no God" and accepts this, he doesn't take the next step to look at the consequences or take time to reevaluate his stance and go back to religion. Either way everyone travels through the journey to find God through many different paths. With that, I ask anyone this, if there is a GOd, then what will you do after you die? Antisonic, you said that you should avoid sin and do good to please God but not out of your fear for him, well then what is the purpose of this life if not for the next life? IF there is a heaven and a hell, then what? Obviously, these two would not be clouds with angels and fire and brimstone, we can imagine a much more diverse spectrum of heavens and hells. These could be places where a soul is rewarded in one way and punished in another by regrets of what they did in their chance on Earth. I do believe this life is a trial. We were not put here for no reason. We were not put here without instructions on how to live this life. We are being tested in every action we do based on its intention. This will determine our ultimate fate. This life is like training for another life. The instructions tell us how to prepare for that better life. That life is like the evolution of our being into the next phase. That phase will have us be able to reach our dreams and satisfy our truest desires. Alright, the cats out of the bag, that's what I believe. This is what I've come to from my years of study and experiences through this life. My lowest points in life have been followed by the highest (the brightest moments come right after the darkest times). I believe that every person that has ever tried to reach the truth has come to the point in their life where a startling realization hits them. That point is the starting point of the true thought experience. That point is when a soul denies its Creator, and wonders...Is there nothing? Does GOd exist? Have I been fooled all my life? Is this possible? Staring at this void and darkness of solitude dead cold in the face and taking it like the greatest beating that your soul has ever experienced, that is the birthplace of wisdom. This is where the seed of enlightenment begins to take root. At this point some people 'accept' this reality and begin advancing in studies like atheism and pantheism, while completeley staying away from any religios philosophies or dogmas out of sheer disgust for them, because they feel as though they were betrayed by religion all these years prior to this realization. Others make it their new quest, job, challenge, and mission in life to find the ultimate truth. These people begin reviewing all philosophies, including religious, athiestic, as well as pantheistic. The void of nothingness, is a beautiful place. People take it different ways. Some get disheartened while others find peace. I believe that this place is a truth. In other words, it is real and exists. However, after spiralling down it and becoming terrified of it, I slowly found out how to live with it and to accept it as well as explain it. This creation, or Universe, is Something. ? . In other words, it is not Nothing. But, whether GOd created it or it came into being by itself, SOmething came from Nothing, because before there was something, there must have been Nothing. Logical? Yes. I'll expand on this, but right now I'm out of time. I'll be back. Sorry. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
38 posts and still no name calling or rude comments - this is going well. RocketScientist: Ok, if this life is a trial, then what sets the standard for judgement? Within Christianity alone, there are many different interpretations calling for many different guidelines. What is a sin, how many sins must be commited, are we born with sin, etc. It all varies. What about morality in general...is it absolute or is it really relative? Is judgement based on life decisions/actions or thoughts (punished for not believing) - or both? Once (if) all of that can be settled, then comes judgement. I believe you are advocating fear and love for God (please correct me if I am wrong). What happens if you are judged negatively? Eternal suffering? Torture, forced depression, fire, serpents, inflicted anguish, mental deterioration - the knowledge that all the pain will never end. Everything listed in the previous sentence is generally considered to be various evils. If one man tortures another, that is an evil act. But instead, God is creating and distributing evil? The Bible can get pretty explicit. So, why? How? Is God benevolent? If so, why so much emphasis on evil - punishment for mistakes? Alas, I must end now, without properly finishing....
