Fred VanVleet will be the worst FA acquisition in Rockets history

Same way Harden stunted Maxey?

 

lol, peak Harden made NBA players out of guys who were literally sltting on their couch like Gerald Green or off in china and blackballed from the league like Kenneth Faried.

The 100+(?) million of dollars worth of guaranteed contracts handed out to over-30 Harden friends after he played with them and made them look better - to guys like Ariza, Tucker, Gordon, House, Jeff Green, etc is testament enough to that, not to mention all the other guys from his other stops. I mean how did Nick Claxton become a good P&R big, how did Paul Reed get a big contract; there's a feature length article over on ESPN about Harden & Ivica Zubac working together after practice last fall. Imagine one of the single greatest passers of his generation making players better. Crazy, right?

It's fine to dislike Harden or to favor FVV for the current Rockets - but to claim that he doesn't make other players or teams better just shows you didn't pay much attention to the Rockets when he was here, which is a shame because they were pretty good for 6-7 years there.

 

Amen is a pg. harden would’ve have prevented him from starting for the next 4 years.

 

Maxey is also listed as a point guard. Seems he enjoyed his best season so far playing alongside James.

 

Did he? Looks to me like he broke out as soon as James left. Yes, his efficiency is down, but scoring volume and assists are way up. (Assists by nearly double.)

Unless you're AS, there's no denying James is a great basketball player, probably the third-best Rocket of all time behind Hakeem and Moses. But unless we hear a report that he was willing to decline his player option and take the same contract Fred did, I'm glad we passed. I don't want to be stuck on a 3-4 year max deal for his waning years.

 

stunts development. oh wait

 

Thats the point - Maxey LEARNED how to be a point guard from James. His assist volume doubled from last season to this year. Hell of a leap. He came into the league as a great scorer and needed that example of how to use pace and leverage to make other guys around him better.

What would be impeded by having James on a max?

 

Neither Harden or Amen are shooting guards. Harden would’ve prevented Amen from starting for four years if that is what he insisted on. If it was a 2 year contract, I’m with you he would have been better for the team. In my opinion, James is one of the top five offensive players of all time. His bbiq is off the charts.

 

James is the mother of all combo guards. I can see Amen also playing positionless via his IQ and athleticism. Amen can play 1-3 pretty easy IMO.

 

Harden came in as a SG. Also, I thought Amen’s BBIQ and court vision was the reason he went so high?

 

1. You need to define what an "overpay" is. To me overpaying means paying more than what he is worth. So what's FVV worth? If we go by market rate he would probably be worth somewhere in the 25-30M range right? So if you sign FVV to say 150M for the next 5 years, then that would be market value for him. OTH the Rockets only want a short deal for him, so you need to pay him a premium so he will be OK with team options on his deal. So because of that flexibility FVV's contract goes up. That's why it's not an overpay because his contract with team options is superior to a full 5 yr contract at lower salary for the Rox who have Amen Thompson waiting in the wings. You triviliazing the team options is kinda dumb tbh when the contract length is what tends to separate assets from liabilities. It doesn't matter if FVV never earned that 40M since nobody will accept a unguaranteed contracts if you don't pay that premium. That's not overpaying that paying for options/insurance.

Who cares if FVV accepted team options on the 3rd year? Well the Rockets care cuz they have a lot capspace now and won't have a lot in 2 yrs time cuz their rookies need extensions. That's why for the Rockets they are willing to pay that premium for FVV cuz nobody as good as him will sign partially guaranteed contracts. That's why I say it goes over your head cuz you don't even think of that just go "FVV aint worth 40M lulz". You realize if we signed Harden to a 5 yr max deal he will play better than FVV but Rox will have to trade away everyone but Sengun and Jabari unless the rookies all accept mid-level extensions? How good is James Harden 5 yrs from now? He will still be on the books for 50-60M lol.

2. "Teams trade on overpaid contracts all the time" That's exactly it FVV's contact is an EXPIRING next season. Expirings in case you haven't figured it out are generally seen as assets, in fact we used Oladipo's expiring to get Steven Adams. Will Memphis agree if Dipo's contract runs 5 yrs long? Of course not right. So if you think about it Dipo's 10M expiring is better than a 5M 4 yr contract even if it costs twice as much per year. This isn't hard to figure out lol.

Overpaid contracts are not assets they are liabilities. Both Ben Simmons and FVV are "overpaid" contracts by your definition, which one is easier to move? If the Nets try to move Ben Simmons they'd have to pay a multitude of assets to offload him because his deal is guaranteed for multiple years. On the other hand, we don't even need to move FVV if there's a team willing to give up assets for him then ok we profited off the "overpaid" contract. If not then we just cut him, we didn't lose anything and cleared his salary off the books. That option is not something you get with "market rate" FVV since like I keep saying he will want a 5 yr deal that's guaranteed. So how are you gonna clear his contract then?

3. No **** bro, the team option makes the contract better since you only got that cuz you paid the premium. If you didn't "overpay" you won't get that team option and the Rox would be screwed financially 2 yrs from now.

That's why when posters like you post about how FVV is overpaid or Rox only signed him because they were desperate it just shows how little you understood the logic and thought about his contract.

 

The Financials would be impeded as paying Harden 60M for the next 5 yrs mean the Rox already over the cap with Sengun and Jabari extensions. I dunno if Amen would indeed blossom from Harden but he will explode on another team unless we give up multiple picks to dump Harden.

 

Solid post. But I disagree.

I don't dislike Harden. The dude is a HOF and arguably single greatest iso player of all time. I know this is blasphemy, but in a pick-up game, I may take prime Harden over prime Dream cause Harden was $ from 3. Harden had the 2nd (or maybe 3rd) best run as a Rocket. I never understood the criticism against him at the time because folks complained he wasn't better than what he was. The dude was a baller and he was THE key piece to their success. They would have won a title if it wasn't for the CP3 injury and crappy refs. But to bolster your point, another guy that benefited from Harden was Josh Smith. There is no Harden hatred here.

But Harden blew up this team and two more teams after that.

Does he make players better? It's debatable to me. His playing style allows other players to play but he doesn't really elevate their play while he is on the court. He's an ISO player at heart. Unless you are a lob threat or a catch/shoot 3pt threat, Harden doesn't make you better. What Harden DOES do, is when he rarely doesn't have the ball in his hands, he'll gladly give it to you and get out of your way so dudes like that, I'm sure.

Anyway, I would have been happy to see Harden back for the short-term gain. But it would have been at the expense of team growth, IMO. It would have also hamstrung the team contractually into a long-term max contract as Harden aged out.

So I'm good w/ FVV. ...and again, FVV is nowhere near the "worst" contract ever.

Like I said before, Harden is like a sugar rush now that you'll regret later. FVV is like kale salad. Not so tasty but is the sensible choice for mature adults.

 

Are you guys sure Harden would have taken a 2 year contract like FVV did, I thought what he was looking for was a somewhat long term commitment from Houston to leverage against the 76ers.

The fact that he requested to be traded to another contender with Kawhi and PG makes me think Houston was all smokes and mirrors. There's really no indication that Harden was going to give up getting a ring and just be a mentor for young kids until he rides into the sunset.

If that's the case why was Harden hell bent of being traded to the Clippers and nobody else.

 

Harden didn't blow up the Rockets. Tilman blew up the Rockets the moment he forced the WB trade and again when he low balled Dantoni.

 

I wanna preface this by saying I didn't want Harden, and I don't want Harden. I don't think he fits with Ime, he wouldn't buy in to the tough defensive mentality that Ime wants. I think he would clash with Ime and check out.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT...man it's hard not to wonder "what if" when it comes to Harden instead of Fred. Harden helping Jalen the way he helped Maxey would be huge. Especially considering Jalen's issue seems to be confidence based. Just the way Maxey talks about him you can tell Harden really pumped him up and gave him a ton of confidence, telling him he's better than he thinks he is. And then obviously taking Sengun to the PNR school, I can only imagine. Look how good he already is with Fred, and I love Fred, but he's no James Harden when it comes to pnr. Again, I can only fantasize about how good this could've been. And on top of all that, I know @Verbal Christ is big on this - Harden can throw a lob pass! You get a lob, everyone gets a lob. And then just add in his gravity and ability to create open shots for others, I think it just helps everyone.

Anyway we probably give it all back on the defensive end and more if Harden was actually here. And he wouldn't have meshed well with Ime, so who cares. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't think about it.

 

James see's the whole court better than Fred due to his size. James is better at feeding the corners and at collapsing a defense for kick outs. Lobs are natural for James because he's a more instinctual passer and plays the leverage and anticipation game perfectly. His gravity is what makes him a great passer and thats with everyone knowing he's lost a step. All of the young guys would have benefitted with a GOAT on the team. They look up to that - they all watched James dominate when they were kids. Its respect for the game. Fred doesnt bring that mystique with him. James is a much better team defender then he gets credit for. True leadership vs contrived and forced.

Fred is GREAT at protecting the ball. I will give him that.

I only came back to this topic when we heard that Udoka is looking for a star. It just made me shake my head a bit.

 

more than anything I would love to see the Sengun/Harden 2 man game. Goodness there's so many ways they would be destroying teams

 

Same man. I had never seen that Zubac clip so I didn't know about the "Harden PNR school" that came after every practice. It's crazy to think how good those two would've been.

 

it makes sense. every big harden has had and has, their synergy and chemistry in pnr has always been extremely fluid and a consistent part of the offense. That doesn't come without putting in the time and work going through all the details. It definitely shows when other teams just can't replicate it to the same level