Once again, I said Franci WILL BE better than Kidd. Kidd is better now but when both careers are over, Francis WILL BE regarded as a better player. Peace.
Why compare Francis to a HOF PG, when Francis isn't even better than Marbury, who is the same age. the comparison to early career success does not favor Francis at all. I don't know why anyone even tries that argument. Kidd was traded after 22 games in his 3rd year, in what looked like a very favorable trade for Dallas. You cannot say Kidd failed in his 3rd year. Fact is, Kidd made it to the playoffs in his 3rd yr. In his 4th year (first full yr with the Suns), at age 25, the Suns one 56 games. At age 26, in his 4th season, Francis couldn't even make Yao Ming the Rookie of the Year, losing out to Marbury and a 19yr old. It was a terribly disappointing season. imo, the most worst one of Francis' career, so far, and it was Francis's fault. the comparison is Marbury, not Kidd. but us Rockets fans simply tend discount Marbury and think Francis is just better. He isn't, and he is only one *day* younger than Marbury.
Kidd is a more complete point guard than SF at this point I'll agree (except for their streaky shooting). But I do not accept the "talent" argument that everyone uses to describe Francis. I pefer the term "athletic ability". It's no doubt that Francis has more natural athletic ability than Kidd - it's HOW he uses this ability on the court that's the problem. To use your own words, Francis is strong, quick, aggressive, explosive and an amazing leaper. This is great stuff to watch if you're looking at SportCenter highlights. It's absolutely terrible to watch if he (Francis) is using these skills to drive into the middle of a zone defense, leap into the air in an attempt to draw a foul and turnover the ball. Yet that's how Francis chooses to use his "talent" over and over and over again. Kidd plays the point the correct way - he runs the offense FIRST and looks to pass and make the team better. Until Francis starts to actually play his position the correct way, these comparisons are moot.
I don't know what you are trying to prove with that. I thought the argument was that Kidd and SF who's better. However, if comparing Francis and Nash, I won't argue that Nash doesn't benefit from playing with better talent. However, even Nash's playmaking abilities are far superior to Steve. As for bringing up Walt, the only reason I can think of why you brought him up is to say that seaon where the Rockets became the team with the best record not to make the playoffs, with not very good talent. However, I wouldn't credit Francis alone with that achievement. I'm not trying to discredit him or anything, Francis is a very good player, but he's not on the level of Jason Kidd and may never be. Btw, on a side note, if we are to use your argument, Walt scored 17 PPG (and more dimes and boards) in his rookie season for the then crappy Kings. So if the same logic is applied then, Spud Webb is a better PG than Steve.
Well if you read the thread, I stated that Francis looked a lot better when Glenn Rice shoots well. Then 4chuckie responded that he didn't get Glenn and Williams involved enough. Then I responded by basically asking what did he expect Steve to do for those players since Walt Williams hasn't been that good for a while and Glenn has been constantly hurt since being in Houston. Then you jumped in and stated that Walt Williams was higher up on the list of scoring options when he was in Houston so he should have scored more but in the same post calling him a third rate player at best. So basically, I was pointing out your flawed logic that Francis should get a third rate player at best more than 10 points a game. How many points do you expect third rate players to score? It's a typical Francis hater argument that he didn't miraculously revive a third rate player's game. You even admit when you call him third rate that he isn't that good to begin with, so basically you agree with me that we shouldn't expect his numbers to go up all of a sudden with a great point guard. And btw, Williams wasn't a starter in Houston either. So tell me, should a third rate player at best who doesn't start, score more than 10 points a game?
2nd rate players tend to be able to elevate their games around super stars (look at Steve Kerr and how many great opportunites he had around MJ and Duncan, think about Maxwell and company around the Dream, look at Horry around Dream and Shaq). None of the guys I mentioned (Kerr, Horry, Maxwell) are all-stars yet they benefitted by being around a star. Stevie has yet to be able to make the consistent pass that anyone can take advantage of. I'm not sure if it was Kittles who said it during one of the segments last night but he said "Kidd gets me the ball right where I want it and he gives me the opportunity to score". I don't doubt Stevie is a great athlete, but he is in no ways a PG and at this point isn't even a player who makes those around him better.
I'm not trying prove that Walt is anything close to a good player. Walt is a third rate player but he sure didn't get the minutes of a third rate player. Usually, if you're an average player on a bad team, you get more minutes and more shots. The stats of PPG is directly proportional to these. If you look at his stats, then he scored more PPG for Toronto. I don't know about you but I would take the Rockets with SF and Mobley over a pre-Carter Raptors any day. He scored more in Toronto because he's actually a scoring option there for the then hapless Raptors. Same thing for the Kings. He scored MUCH more in Sacramento than in Houston. So how is my logic flawed? If you wanted to prove my Rox sucked for couple of years you certainly done that. My point is, he played 6 minutes per game more in Houston than he does in Dallas and you expect him to score the same number of points? Also, Nash drives down the court, he sees Walt, Nowitzki and Finley (maybe NVE) open, who does he pass to? Now by the same token, if Francis pushes up court and finds Walt, MoT and Cat open, who does he pass to? He certainly would still go to Cat, but their skill difference is much narrower than comparing Walt to the Dallas threesome.
Oh, I forgot to say, I know many third rate roll players doing 10 PPG, especially if getting 24-25 MPG like Walt did in Houston.
What a fantastic post! One can only hope that even this modest level of improvement will be enough to help the Rockets take that perverbial next "step".
Francis will be better than Kidd?! Great! Then NJ would have no hesitation in making the trade. Straight up, I would do the trade tonight. In a few years, Kidd will be old; in a few years, Francis will still be clueless. Both will still be rich.
Kidd is better at his position than Franchise b/c he makes everyone else better. He is a pass 1st score 2nd. Franchise is a score then score than pass 1st. They are about the same in rebounding.
