It happened a couple of games ago against the Grizz. On back-to-back plays, Francis threw an outlet pass to Ming for a breakaway dunk and Ming launched one to Francis for a breakaway dunk. It's happened a few times. Do we break like many other teams in the league (Kings, Mavs, etc.)? No.
Thx Manny, that means a lot. I try to make every post somewhat thoughtful. This is a great thread. One of the few good ones that started off on the right note and the right theme. And you're moderating it as a good thread initiator should be doing. Kudos Anyways, while the title of this thread seems somewhat "offensive" (no pun intended) to Stevie Francis, it's really about problems endemic to the entire team. Francis is our franchise player for good reason. But even franchise players have to grow, esp. with the team still growing. And for the record Sane, I appreciate the fact that you're least your courageous enough to take a position on things. But let me ask you and all the other cc fans this question: "Given what you've seen of Yao to date, and more imptly, Stevie's involvement of Yao in our offense, are you happy with the status quo?" If you are happy with the present, then we might as well multiply our 12/10 record by approx 3.9 to reach 47 wins. Would u be happy with that? Would that be enough to represent a championship caliber team? It's an open question I ask all of you. If you don't like the status quo, what HAS WORKED that you'd like to see more of? i.e. What are our winning ways? 'cause quite frankly, the problems that surfaced these last two nites have taught us a thing or two on what NOT to do. ponderin'SAGE
When he can't get to the bucket he'll shoot, and he's a pretty solid shooter, I'd say about 42% from midrange. Thats what I find funny about people, trying to put players that can score by taking it to the rack down and ignore it when one of those players are on their team *cough* Yao Ming *uncough* primarily scores like that. If every player could take it to the rack like Jefferson they would do it! I'm willing to bet that he's just as good as Marion. Another player that was supposed to suck after Kidd left. He isn't sitting there just waiting for Kidd to pass him the ball. He can do stuff on his own, but all of the SportsCenter plays are Kidd to Jefferson alley oops. Thats how people make up **** like "Jefferson is **** without Kidd".
Oh yeah, and on that Richard Jefferson Question. I can vouch for NYKRule, Jefferson is really THAT good. The guy can shoot, post, rebound, and take it strong to the hoop. The reason why I would say that Jefferson's THAT good, even w/o Kidd, is that last season (i vaguely recall), he was playing behind Keith Van Horn (who NJ subsequently traded). So, Jefferson was playing with the "second" unit many nites and really shining... even before the playoffs. The rest is history as we know that Jefferson literally muscled his way into the starting job and forced the Van Horn trade. Jefferson is heads and shoulders more athletic than Van Horn. What NJ lost in Van Horn in a 3 point threat, they gained in an awesome perimeter player, rebounder, slasher, AND defender (watch the highlights of him defending MJ two nites ago). The guy is a rare gem, and we'd be half as lucky if either KT or EG become half the forward Jefferson is. I also think what makes Jefferson so special is that he's not only talented, but he's a great "system" player. He fits well in the NJ Princeton Offense. Would he work here? Probably, b/c he's so talented. But keep in mind, NJ has no "premiere" go to center. They have Dikembe and MacCullough, but neither are what I would call, dominating centers. Consequently, you have more points to spread around the other positions. 20ppg on another team? Boston maybe, Philly maybe, but the Rox? Less likely given our prolific guards. just a thought theSAGE
Manny, These are the same things that were said about Shawn Marion. This Stephon Marbury that you dished has made him play even better, FYI. I lost all respect for this conversation once I realized you haven't WATCHED the game. I mean, for God's sake, how could you be making these comments if you didn't watch it? How can you decide if he got his teammates involved when you didn't watch the game? Because he's taking 19 shots, that's why he's not setting his teammates up? What kind of logic is that? Francis SHOULD NOT set his teammates up as much as other PG's in the league. In fact, he should be one of the worst in "setting up your teammates" attempts because, simply, he's the best offensive PG in the league. Why don't YOU get it? The player you want to trade for gets the ball to the person who has a better chance of scoring. On this team, that's Steve Francis and Yao Ming. If he hadn't taken those shots, he'd be deffering and he wouldn't have guts and bla bla bla. The only thing you can pin on Francis is still not having the experience to play good D. The effort is there, the talent is there.. This is really the first season he's put consistent defensive effort into.. I definitely do agree that if you pass it to the big man first, good things will happen. But Francis playing OFF the ball? Sometimes, early in games.....sure, maybe. But does Paul Pierce play without the ball? Allen Iverson? Kobe Bryant? T-Mac? Players with Francis' talent should always have the ball in their hands when it matters. I suggest you watch the games before you make comments like "I'm sick of....." "Francis STILL....." "The team.......last night" The team was horrible last night, but for none of the reasons mentioned above.
SageHare6 and NYKRule. Good posts I agree wholeheartedly that Jefferson is the real deal. He'll be recognized as one of the top 2 or 3 SFs very soon. Still Kidd probably gets Jefferson 4-6 points a game. One minor point of correction. MacCullough is with the 76ers now. Stone hands is on IR. Nets got raped on that deal.
Um, Sane, your suggestion is duly noted. You are missing my point that this isn't about one game, man. It is something that has shown itself to be a tendency or a trend. I don't know if it is the fact that Francis doesn't trust in his teammates, if it is because he wants to pad his stats, that he just doesn't have the IQ of a PG to play, or something else. But the point is the same things that have happened the last couple of seasons are happening again. Yes, I jumped on the 19 FG attempts but part of that was due to the wretched shooting percentage that was around .250. Logic tells me that if your shot is not falling that you look for other ways to help your team win. In Steve's case that would be getting the ball to other people, mainly Yao. Oh and Sane, when you have such a great site like clutchcity, you still get a lot from reading the site, know what I mean? I mean it can't replace watching the actual game itself, but after reading things around here, I do feel like I know what I am talking about, unless you want to tell me that I am being misled..
Thx for the correction, Striker... It's easy to get those two confused. We all know how much Dikembe and MacCullough look alike. erroneousSAGE
Manny, Very true. Reading here can be very insightful. In fact, you catch things that may not have caught your eye while watching. Regardless. The point where we disagree is here: You say it's a trend. I say it's not. Besides these past 2 games, despite a slump in shooting, Francis has kept his team involved, has worked hard on defense, and HAS done other things to compensate. He's taken Ming by the hand and told his team "this guys is ONE OF US, we WILL involve him in core of the team". That's leadership. There was a lot of doubt surrounding Francis' leadership. But come on. It's just 2 games he's been off. One of them away against a team who is .500 with their new coach, and one at home against a team who just has our number. Sure, we expected wins. But the team lost focus, and they thought that attitude would win this game. Francis and Ming weren't part of the people who thought that. They played hard. They battled on their homecourt. Francis saw his team lounging, so he decided to make it a 2 man game, him and Yao. I saw the game. Francis was the leader. Andre Miller did NOT control the tempo. Andre Miller hit floaters, leaners, and all sorts of lucky shots. Ask anyone who saw it. It was like watching Iverson's 9 Field Goals that he scores out of 30. Here's what WILL be interesting: How we react in the next game. How we react in the next Clippers and Memphis games. My prediction: We will win all 3.
DONT MOVE SF TO SG. He will be outplayed by other 2 guards most of the times. Mark my words. I do believe we have a dilemma. Either SF learn to become more effective as a pg, playing better defense, or we'll never get the ring for sure. I must admit I am not a "SF lover", but I do want him to succeed for the sake of the team. Give him another 1 to 2 years to adjust and learn. And that will also allow more times for Ming to develop his true potentials. We might need to trade SF if the expected changes don't come into fruition by then.
You have just a bit of a dilemna here, though. If Francis doesn't develop a PGs mentality and more consistent defense, either because he can't or won't, then you have a small, jack happy SG without great D but with a substantial contract. So you either roll the dice and hope or you look for a trade while there's value to be gotten.
How we react will be telling... but heck, I'm not even looking that far out to the next Clips and Grizz game. This upcoming week with the Heat and then on national TV against the Pacers will be very telling of how far (or short) this team has come. Honestly, if these last two losses represent our "rough" patch, it will be interesting to see how these Rox face adversity. Thus far into the season, we've never flirted with 4 game losing streaks. Hopefully, we won't have to entertain that notion by beating the Heat. The Rox seem to relish the underdog role yet at other times, discount their "favorite" standing. Pacers should bring out their best and I'm looking forward to seeing this matchup again after our season opener way back when.
I think Steve still does not trust Ming in critical situations. After all, Ming is a rookie, you do not want to put the ball in a rookie's hand when the team is down Why can not we design some set plays to free Mobley or Francis to shoot? With Ming's size, it is pretty easy to set the picks or screens for Mobley to shoot. Mobley is a very good spot shooter.
That's Baloney With the exception of but a few players, Steve TOTALLY trusts his teammates. Trust is NOT the issue here. Otherwise, you'd be hearing more "patronizing" comments between teammates. If you care to see a trust issue, you should refer to the Washington Wizards. "Kwame this, Kwame that.." I tell you, in Washington's case, you have a big man that is absolutely SUFFOCATED by his senior/veteran teammates. The Rox have been great to Ming and Ming has delivered. Do we need more chemistry and teamplay? Sure. But let's not pit player against player and spin this into a internal trust issue. Please!!!!! theSAGE
I also do not want to see Steve to move to SG. He is 6'3", just not tall enough to play that position as a defender. Steve's defense is a little bit shaky, his PG skills need to be improved. BUT Still we need a defensive stopper, like Pippen or Kobe on their championship teams. When they need to stop opponents from scoring, Pippen or Kobe always was assigned to stop the others' hot hand. In most situations, they succeeded. We need this kind of player. Right now, we do not have. I do not think Steve can ever be developed into a defensive stopper, he is just too short. The difference between Steve and Kobe/T-mac is that Steve is 6'3", Kobe is 6'7", T-Mac is 6'10". Steve will never be a superstar like Kobe/T-mac just because of size. Steve is an all-star though. Some examples for us to need a stopper: the Phoenix game when Marbury scored the winning basket; the Memphis game, when somebody scored layup and another guy scored the 3 pointer; The first Clippers game when someone scored the 2-pointer.
Well, you tell me, no matter how good a rookie is, do you want to put the ball in his hand when the game is on the line? plus Ming was turnover-prone for the past 2 games. Okay, so maybe I should not use the "trust" word, but it is only 20 games, not long enough for Steve to give the ball to Ming when the game is on the line. It takes time.
Sun, if ANY PLAYER WERE AVERAGING A 100% FG%, YES I'D PUT THE BALL IN HIS HANDS, even he WERE A ROOKIE What kind of nonsensical question is that? Just b/c you're a rookie, you shouldn't be given the ball? OIC and 20 games just isn't enough either to warrant an opportunity for the last "clutch" shot of the game. First off, the game shouldn't ALWAYS come down to the line. Secondly, even if the game were on the line, Yao is just as capable as Steve to deliver. One thing I didn't mention, but I think is VERY IMPT, is that for SF to take it to the next level, SF HAS TO GET TO THE LINE MORE, esp in crunch time. We all know the guy can drive and penetrate. But why isn't he drawing the late quarter fouls consistently? Look at any championship caliber team... and you'll see that they understand this concept. Moreover, while SF is undersized for the SG spot, you overlook his superhuan vertical. That said, I DO THINK HE can be better than Kobe (Quiet Laker Fans, I know what you're thinking.). He may be glossed over, much like Sam Cassell was, but SF totally has the potential to be a first tier superstar. Why? b/c he has a center now who can enhance HIS OWN GAME. SF and Yao is a tandem just waiting to explode. Once these two start playing off each other, there's no reason why we couldn't conceivably see Malone and Stockton like point/and assist numbers. He has all the talent. What he needs now is some more brains. theSAGE
Yeah, what's up with this. Isn't this a Manny thread. which reminds me. I need some girl advice. My wife is outta town, and her best friend come over today to "drop of the chairs." Yeah, right. So, should I call her??? Or would that not be cool.
