I actually don't think the fast break percentage of Nash is less, Francis can make athletic plays somtimes but sometimes he tries to do too much and blows a few layups or dunks every once in a while. Nash is a quirky player, he has all kinds of leaners and runners that he can go to if it's contested and he's safer with the ball generally. I would NOT trade Francis for Baron Davis though... Davis is playing real well but nothing in his history suggests to me that he can keep it up. Francis is more exlosive than Davis, shoots equally well, and has only slightly worse handles.
You're talking about dunking and not finishing on a drive in general. I never mention Nash's pull up shot. I was comparing Nash's lay-ups, short floaters, and finger rolls to Francis' dunks and lay-ups. Yes, a dunk is a higher percentage shot than a lay-up. But, what is the percentage of times that Steve dunks when he penetrates? I would have gone with Francis had he made better decisions when trying to drive inside. He would dribble inside and try to put off a shut with multiple defenders surrounding him. This leads to a bad shot or a turnover way more often than him scoring. Francis probably has more lay-up and dunk attempts than Nash, but that's because Nash makes better decisions by not forcing a shot with multiple defenders in his face. Steve Nash had higher FG% than Steve Francis for the past four years. Granted that Nash is a better outside shooter, if you think Steve Francis is a better finisher -- that should cancel out Nash's better outside shooting. Yet, Nash has the higher FG %. Nash: 0.477 -- 0.487 -- 0.483 -- 0.465 -- 0.485(this season) Francis: 0.445 -- 0.451 -- .0417 -- 0.435 -- 0.462 (this season) The Dallas-Houston game is testimony to how often Nash penetrates. He could've attempted some lay-ups had he not decided to pass it off to an open man.
You're completely missing the point. I am talking about who is best at scoring a basket from 2 feet in and shorter, who is best at driving through 3 guys and jump stopping dishing out, blah blah blah. Those stats don't really have any bearing on the answer to that question.
EDIT: I meant so say: I am talking about who is the best at scoring a basket (or getting fouled) from 2 feet in and shorter, NOT who is best at driving through 3 uys and jump stopping dishing out, blah blah blah, etc (although steve F is probably better at thsi as well, much quicker first step than Nash)
francis has the ability to take over the game, Nash is only effective with other good players surrond him!!
That is so untrue it's funny. Nash makes his teammates better, while Francis does not. Perhaps you missed the olympic qualifying tournament this summer where he almost led a bunch of scrubs to an olympic berth. He didn't need to do it by being the leading scorer either, since his game isn't about that. He made the scrubs around him better and even though Canada failed to qualify, Nash was named tournament mvp since he almost did the unthinkable as Canada was ranked the 6th or 7th best team before the tournament started.
Nash outplayed Francis in the game... by a small margin. Nash shot better. You're defining the better player as the player who can take over a game. Statistics-wise, Francis scores more points has more rebounds. Nash shoots a higher FG%, higher 3-point FG %,higher FT%, more assists, less TOs. I'll give it to you and attribute Nash's assist numbers to Dallas having better shooters. I'm not arguing that Nash is a better player base on statistics. I just want to show that they're "almost" about equal, with Francis on top. The things that Nash is better at are good decision-making and good court vision. He makes his teammates better and does it more efficiently than Francis. I agree with you that teams need a player t take over a game in certain situations to win. But it doesn't help when it's the same guy who's taking over the game is also the guy that is digging the hole deeper with bad decisions and mistakes. Why have that when you can avoid the hole to begin with? You're also suggest that you think Francis is more valuable to the Rockets than Nash is to the Mavs, therefore he's the better player. I don't think this applies when you compare two players from different teams to decide who the better player is.
You meant discounting how the player got there, who would finish better with the ball and two feet from the basket? Well, then the more athletic player wins. .. and that's Steve Nah, nah, nah, Steve Franchise.
yah, he led a bunch of scrub against another set of grabages.... if it was francis, he might just take over the game and win them!
I have no doubt that Francis would have scored 30-40 points if replaced Nash on the canadian team since Francis is all about himself and his stats. The diff would be that he wouldn't have gotten his teammates involved since he can't lead a team, so the rest of the team would have scored 10 points combined and the team would go winless and finish dead last. Don't be bitter cause your boy Francis isn't good enough to crack the US team. Before you shoot back that Nash wouldn't either, that is something that can't be proven since he doesn't qualify to play for the US so we'll never know that answer, but I have a feeling he would have. How many playoff appearances does Francis have? How many 3rd team All-Nba selections did Francis get? You do realize that not too long ago the Mavs were one of the worst teams around right and if you don't think Nash has a big part to do with that turnaround, then you're crazy.
Nash is a better pure point, no question. If we had another star scorer, you might want a Nash for this team instead of Francis, but we don't. Nash is a much better conductor of the multiple options and sets Dallas likes to run, and I think this year, if there was even any doubt, it's become clear that he's the player that makes Dallas work. Without him they're a bunch of guys wanting the ball. Steve has more individual talent, but Dallas wouldn't want him; he'd be just another scorer, and they've got plenty of those. On the other hand, Steve is better suited for what we need; a second scorer/star ( right now he's first, I mean down the road). You need at least two stars to win consistently, and Steve is more likely to be that all around star than Nash. I could be wrong...Nash could be a 25 ppg player on another team if he looked to shoot more, I don't know. But I have more faith that Francis has that kind of ability, and unless we acquire another star who could take pressure of of Yao, I'd stick with Steve. Down the road they make a better, albeit less cohesive 1-2 punch than Nash does. Another problem is that perhaps Nash's greatest asset is that he makes amazing decisions at full speed, possibly even better than Kidd...and on a Yao centered team that asset would be largely wasted, unless you want Yao to be the ultimate outlet passer. I just feel that each pg is better suited to the team they are with right now. Nash is the straw that stirs the drink in Dalls, Steve is one of the two stars the Rockets have to build around to be a legit contender.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!! wHERE DO THESE PEOPLE COME UP WITH THE IDEA HES ALL ABOUT THE STATS!!! "hes a ball hog.. he just cares about stats... im a winny b**** who has no ****ing clue what im talking about..." Jezus crist, give some evidence people that steve just cares about the stats. Maybe i should give evidence that he isnt. How many times do you see run up to ming and hug him after he made a shot, how many times have you seen him try to get the whole team invloved this season, how many times do you hear him talking about getting this team on tract and winning the playoffs, how many times do you see steve with a sigh of dissapointment when he sees the team struggling!!! This guy wants to WIN. THats why he takes over game, he feels its his duty. ANd hes damn well at doing that. Ask any nba expert on steve's desire to win. Francis wants to win period!!!! SO get your winny ass out of here please!!!!
This was awesome analysis, and I certainly don't have the empirical evidence to argue against it. But I guess then the question is... what do we need to become contenders? Bring in an Eric Snow type and use Francis like Iverson? Point forward to faciliate the offense? Right now the flow of the offense is disrupted because the ball movement is not good. JJ, Cat, and Cato are average or below average passers. Certainly there doesn't need to be a true point guard for championships, I mean look at the threepeat lakers or the threepeat bulls. But the Lakers had a good system and good veterans who could pass like Horry, and Shaq is a better passer than Yao. The bulls had great passers, Pippen and Kukoc could act like point forwards. Their "PG"s were Armstrong and Harper, scoring guards but they didn't run the offense. Maybe it's just a function of the triangle I don't know. Can the Rockets win a championship with Francis running the offense? If not what peices are missing?
I don't think Nash's style of play won't tire out Yao if they were to play on the same team. Dallas doesn't run as many fast breaks as you think. I'm not sure what people think about when they say Dallas plays a fast pace game. They do waste no time in getting up the court, but they don't jack up many shots with 20 or 15 seconds left on the shot clock. I think field goal attempts per game is an accurate indication of the speed of the game. Here are some FGA/game from last year: 1) Sacramento: 85.2 2) Dallas: 85.1 3) Golden State: 84.6 4) LA: 83.6 5) Minnesota: 83.0 8) Cleveland: 82.3 24) Houston: 78.8 Sacramento, LA, and to a lesser extent, Cleveland are considered big mem oriented teams. So the pace is just fine for big men like Ilgauskas, Divac, and Shaq. According to the numbers, Dallas seemed to have made good use of the 24 seconds before taking a shot. Dallas has the least number of TOs last year with 11.1 TO/game and Houson has 14.6 TO/game. Worst yet, Cleveland is last with 17.4 TOs/game, yet they are among the top with FGA/game--only 3.2 attempts less than Dallas. The Mav's doesn't run that many fast breaks. What they really do is they play a half court game the majority of the time and, though not with post play, they have players move around a lot while Nash dribbles all over the place. Is it possible that Francis's style of play is what that's holding us from playing a different style? And that he fits what we need becasue we rely on him to be our leader and we have no other option? If we have Steve Nash and someone like Alan Houston instead of Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley I think we'd be a better team. Jeff Van Gundy can get Francis to play defense, I'm sure he can get Houston and Nash to better defense as well. Francis and Mobley both need to dribble the ball to be effective offensively. If someone is going to dribble the ball for much of the 24 seconds, he better be a "good passer" or a "great scorer." Francis is a very good scorer but not great and Mobley is neither. Though lately, Mobley has taken more shots as a spot up shooter than in the past. We need good off-the-ball players and we have those players that fit Nash's style of play. We have good spot up shooters and slashers in Piatowski, Padgett, and Nachbar(yes, Nachbar ). I'm sure Adrian is fmailiar with Nash's style and Jim Jackson played with the Kings last year. The Mav's ususally have Dirk or Finley(now Walker) go one-on-one anyway, so it won't be much different if we have him dump the ball to Yao. I'm not proposing that we trade Steve and Cuttino. I'm only envisioning how we'd be better with Nash. So save the bashing for someone else!
But the Lakers had a good system and good veterans who could pass like Horry, and Shaq is a better passer than Yao I loved your post...but...Horry was never a great passer. Inlet pass..yes(but hakeem could catch a pile of **** heading at his knees at 100mph...). The Shaq better passer that Yao is rediculous(sp).
Shaq is clearly a better passer than Yao, I mean you just have to be objective here. Best passing center in the league? Still Shaq.
Cuban would be a genius to take that trade cause Nash is a free agent. Francis is under contract for 5 more years. Its not that Nash is better its the philosphy. Dallas runs more so there more scoring to go around. For some strange reason the rockets don't run and have a young team.
I don't think Cuban would be dumb enough to trade for Francis. I'll give him a mulligan on the Walker trade and just chalk it down to temporary insanity.