For the last time, Yip I said neither of them are good enough to carry a team to a ring. I also said that for the right player, I would trade either of them. You hear some people saying they wouldn't trade Yao for any player in the NBA - which is insane.
I don't have to... read DavidS's post above yours. That sums it up. Also, please answer my call for you to find one source that thinks we should trade yao and build around steve. I don't have to answer any more of your crap when you just ignore the questions you can't answer.
Okay... then why do you keep bringing yao down and defending steve? If your "centrist" view is right... then why are there so many articles out there that think we should build around Yao and none the other way around?
I said leave Steve out of it. Let's let Yao stand on his own two feet. Let's talk about his weaknesses other than the standard "Well Steve sucks more" response.
DavidS... I can't agree more. I just want to thank you for all of your insightful posts and analyses. On a side note. Remember around a year and a half ago when you either made a thread or a post about high post vs. low post in respect to Yao? Probably not. But it was good posts like that that made me stop lurking and start posting. I'd never been in a bbs before.
Give it another year or so. The hype machine comes and goes. The same people praising Yao now will tear him down later. It's the media. You've already seen some of it on TV.
Steve is central to your argument. How can we leave steve out of it? So this is all about Yao? Steve is on some other existential plane? Okay... Yao has some weaknesses, as DavidS said, time is on his side to get over those. Meanwhile, Steve has less time. Yao is a championship peice... perhaps by trading steve we can get some other peices that go towards a championship. But certainly if we stay put we are not going to all of a sudden figure it out and win.
What does that matter? Lets say that Yao = Marion. Yeah, and? How does this support your cause for keeping Francis? Earlier you said, "They need each other." Even having TWO Shawn Marion's on this team is better than having a Francis/Marrion duo. It doesn't matter who you put with Francis. He still brings his sloppy game with him. He hurts the team more than Yao does. Efficiency is key here. Let say that Yao doesn't become dominant. I still want him on this team just for the sake of him being efficient. Even if he's not the focus. But Francis can not become the focus of this team, EVER! It's not going to happen. And even when he's not the focus he seems to still hurt the team with his bone-head turnovers. Have you noticed how much better the offensive flows when Yao and MJax are on the court at the same time? This by no means suggesting a permanent solution. But it just goes to show you how an efficient point guard can help EVERYONE. Not just Yao or the PG himself. It's a team game. You seem to underestimate the negative effect a sloppy PG has on the whole team! Regardless of Yao was on this team or not.
Geez, I turn around for one day and this "Trade Francis" thread has turned into a "Yao sucks/Yao doesn't suck" thread. Is there no decency in the world! Hmmn. Maybe I can turn back the tide. How about Steve for Ray Allen? What do you guys think about that?
1. So Yao is not much better than Rik Smits even though he puts up better numbers in his 2nd year than Smits ever did? 2. So you don't think that... in this league of weaker centers, Yao would dominate? 3. Oh so Tim Hardaway is a superstar now? Please... I'm eating dinner. Reading this line nearly made me choke from laughing. 4. Funny thing Juugie, with your numbers, Yao would be averaging ~18 shots per 48 mins while Steve would be averaging ~17 shots per 48 mins. That's one hell of a center oriented offence. Hey, wanna guess how many shot Kenny Smith got per 48 compared to Dream? Well in 94, Dream was getting ~25 per 48 while KS was getting 15. And KS shoots A HELL A LOT HIGHER % than Steve Francis. Juugie, do me a favor. Make a list of the starting centers that hasn't in this league that never had their shots blocked by every other center in the league. Hell, make a list of starting centers that shoots at 53%. No height advantage indeed.
The thing is, by saying you think Yao will be a dominant Center, you're not comparing his weaknesses to Steve. You're comparing him to the other dominant big men in history. Do you think Yao is or will become a dominant center? If you do, then you should only compare him to other centers. The only thing that matters is how his limitations compare to those of dominant centers.
Funny thing Juugie, last time I check nobody in the league was offering Jordan/Bird for Yao. Also a funny thing, you don't think it's good to build around a 17/9 guy but you think it's good to build around a guy who leads a team to lottery in the East. What's more, weak and pathetic as he is, bad shot blocker/can't jump/slow, none competitive or not, the Houston Rockets just happens to become a great defensive team when he was drafte 2 years ago and suck at D when he wore down at the end of last and this season. Want some positves on Yao, well to start he shoots at 54%, FT at >82% and averages 17PPG on 13.5 SPG. For comparison purposes, TD averages 22 on 17.3, Dirk 22 on 17.3, Randolph 20 on 17, JO'Neal 20 on 18. Shaq is the only comparable one at 21 on 14 but having taken 210+ FTs. Also, since you so like to use the per min stats (like you did to prove how Yao shoots more than Steve), it's funny that you ignored the fact that Yao's RPM would actually be higher than many of those players. Nice to see you completely ignore that though.
The difference between you and I is that I will gladly trade Yao if he *never improved.* You wont trade Francis even if he stayed the same since his rookie season. I bet if Francis dropped to 35FG% you'd still apologize for him. What if he increased his turnover rate to 4.0? Would you still talk about his "hustle and heart?" And lets say that Yao does become the focus of this team (w/Francis gone). Do you know what that means? It means more pressure will be put on Yao's shoulders. And most of our losses will be blamed on Yao. But that comes with the territory. Right now we are in a transition. It's neither Yao or Francis's team. Not really. Yao doesn't feel comfortable taking that role yet. I know, know... You don't feel that he's able to (aggressiveness and physically). But with the right players around him, that would have tremendous effect on this game. Couple this with his yearly improvement (strength and speed) and time and I'd say that's a good starting point for the future.
I'd doubt that Shaq, Dream, DRob, Duncan, Kareem, just to name a few never had their shots blocked by every starting center in a two year period. Hell, even Cato. Also, Tim Hardaway was an all-star. Was Kenny? Also, people like to say "Yao only takes the 3rd most shots on the team" to imply that other players are selfish when the truth is if he'd get his ass in shape, he could play more minutes. Doesn't it bother you that your all world center is so tired by the end of the year that he can hardly move? I know, if you close your eyes and click the heels of your ruby red slippers (and blame Steve) it will all go away... Yao IS a dominant player... Yao IS a dominant player... Yao IS a dominant player...
Juugie, please come up with a list of starting centers that hasn't been blocked by everybody yet. Hell, please come up with a list of historical centers that hasn't been blocked by everybody in the league.
Yes, "Dominant" is a subjective term and relys on the competition. If Yao becomes the best "center in the league" what does it matter? He's still be a matchup problem. How good he becomes is unknow. We just don't know yet. We wont get a good sense of this until about his 6th or 7th year. After that, even then, he can always learn new things. He has shown he can do that. By the way, do you understand the concept of the team game? Comparing individual skills is only part of the equation. Two things that Francis has a problem with (skill and team game).
I'd trade Steve today for the right deal. Also, Yao should be blamed more than anyone else for the losses because it IS his team. It has been given to him. Everything the Rockets have done the past two year as an organization is to give him the best chance to excel. Also, players don't get faster as they get older. He may get stronger, but this is as fast/quick as he's going to get. Also, don't you think that if a player is going to be great, he will be so no matter who his teammates are? I mean the team might not do as well, but he personally will be great. What great player in the past would you say would not have been great if he had different teammates?
How many on that list are still in the league? And just to let you know, Duncan DID get his shots blocked by every center in the league and you are an even bigger idiot than even I thought if you think Cato hasn't in a 2 year period. How many rings does Tim Hardaway have compared to Kenny Smith? Dear Juugie, I thought that was the point of your argument, that Zo sucks because he doesn't have the ring. It's also nice that you compare him with a role player. How about comparing Hardaway with a legit option, like say OT or Clyde? Oh yeah I definitely could see how Zo sucked because he can't win with a better team than Dream. Dream was without question the better player, but only an idiot like you think Zo sucks. Actually the fact that Yao plays all year round bothers me a lot and I wish he doesn't have to go back to China. But yeah that sure is worse than a guy who plays his hardest and still haven't got a clue. But hell, who cares about that, Steve Francis is an ALL - STAR.
