Huh? How is starting a sentence with "I believe" or "I think" pushing my view on someone? ------------------ Ni ai chou mei!
That is my opinion about myself, Jetta, you have nothing to do with this, you egomniac. I am not going to enter a discussion such as this and say, "I believe that blah blah blah" because I am more interested in other's ideas, not in letting people know mine. Some time ago I did start a thread of religious stories (in other words stories where people explained how they came upon their religious beliefs) with the purpose of no debate/argumentation. In discussions that are about debate/argumentation, however, i like to keep my person out of it. Make sense now? ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Gosh, Rimbaud, thanks for clearing that up. I believe I wouldn't have been able to get over myself if you hadn't explained that to me ------------------ Ni ai chou mei!
Aw, c'mon, kbm! I'm sure you and I can agree on lots of things. Well, if nothing else, we have the Rockets and this quote in common! heyP: That was a fascinating read. Good stuff! What is you, edumacated or somethin'? ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
TPL and Max, I will attempt to give a little synopsis of different materials I have that can cover a little of the development (just highlights )of folk and mystery religions leading up to Christianity. The folk religions were pagan beliefs held by the "folk tradition" of the peasantry. These were the people called "pagan" by the urban, educated and literate upper classes (from pagani = of the countryside). Pagan religions were most concerned with place, season and story. They were linked to ageless ritual practices rather than literary tradition. Folk elements of birth and death, sowing and harvest, are associated with popular rituals that establish a calendar of holy days (winter solstace, etc.). Growing out of the folk tradition were the State Religions of Egypt and Babylonia, for example. The economic linkage of the world (of the time/region), begun by the Assyrians, continued by the Persians and Greeks seriously challenged both the state and folk religions. Culture contact called old traditions into question and various different responses occurred. In Greece and China secular philosophy was the result. In Palestine (Judaism) and Iran (Zoroastrianism) a universalising Monotheism formed. India developed syncretic Hinduism and philosophic Jainism and Buddhism. Older beliefs, of Elusian "Kore" in Greece, of the Great Mother in Anatolia, Isis and Serapis in Egypt, Mithra from Iran were developed as mystery religions intending to give practioners a new view of the world. All of these trends had the effect of dissolving older collectivist beliefs, and made the individual master of their soul. Seen within this framework the Mystery religions all aimed at creating a new solidarity among believers, independent from traditional belief, familial or tribal ties. They were based around a central core ritual enacted as a religious rite into which the believer was initiated. The central mystery of each belief was something that could not be derived from logic, or rational argument, but only from the experience of an altered state of consciousness. Those who had shared this experience were considered to be reborn and to have experienced direct contact with the divine. As a result of these experiences, people were considered to change the way they behaved with others, and to live a more moral way of life. Comparative studies of the mystery religions all show this sacramental rite to have been at the core of the religion. They began long before Christianity. A Mystery religion was practiced at Eleusis in Greece from the late Bronze Age. The worship of Cybele, brought to Rome at the height of its war with Carthage long preceeded Christianity. Mithraism was an Iranian faith with all of these elements long before it came to the Roman Empire. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines [This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited June 20, 2001).]
Great stuff Rimbaud. Let me add my 2 cents concerning Mithra of Persia. Mithraism was probably the greatest rival to Christianity in the Roman Empire with Christianity winning out. Here's a couple of interesting things to note. The Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced. The cave of the Vatican belonged to Mithra until 376 AD, when a city prefect suppressed the cult of the rival Savior and siezed the shrine in the name of Christ, on the very birthday of the pagan god, December 25th. Paul says, "They drank from the spiritual rock and that rock was Christ."(I Cor. 10:4). These are identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ. The Vatican hill in Rome that is regarded as sacred to Peter, the Christian rock, was already sacred to Mithra. Many Mithraic remains have been found there. In fact, virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions. Does anybody know of a mountain, that according to prophesy I think, is where God is supposed to come through/down/I don't know on Judgement Day? One of my friends told me about it, and said that it had a fault line of some sorts that ran perfectly down the middle, and how that should be evidence of his future arrival. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 20, 2001).]
Max, I said that about Marks ending (just now saw your response) because the original Mark is generally accepted to end at 16:8. I found this online: The oldest copies of the Gospel of Mark, the Sinaitic and Vatican, end at Mark 16:8. A note in the New International Version of the Bible states: "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20." Verses 9 to 20 appear to have been added later by an unknown Christian forger. The addition was quoted in the writings of Irenaeus and Hippolytus in the second or third century Another: The earliest Greek, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, and Latin manuscripts end the Gospel of Mark at 16:8: "The women said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid." That does not sound like an appropriate ending for a book of good news, so some early scribes, undertaking their own research, added what they thought would be appropriate endings. . . Many translators, including myself, consider verses 9 through 20 to be a legitimate part of the New Testament. (Christian History, Interview with Dr. Bruce Metzger downloaded from Christian History Magazine on 9/17/96.) So it was added later, after deciding it should be more in line with the other gospels. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
rimbaud -- correct...some of the earliest translations did have it...some didn't. but again, i don't feel that puts the entire book in question. ------------------
I thought the letters of Paul were the most doubted ones. I've read articles that pointed out great semantic differences, pointed to historical irregularities in the appearance of the texts, etc. The response text I read (this was for a theology class) basically said that it was impossible to know, but that age could account for the semantic differences, history is hard to decipher over time, and that even if it was a forgery, that doesn't render the lessons obselete. Not specific, I know . I thought that someone else might have heard of this controversy, though, since Paul does tend to be a focus point for arguments. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Max, Sorry, but my sources are legit on that one. There's always going to be differing views on myths like that, and I'm sure you've just found a different author's perspective. There's no definitive myth concerning Horus/Osiris. Perhaps I should post the similarities he has with Krishna? I also don't think you'll be able to debunk what I've said about the Sun. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 20, 2001).]
Funny how everyone can say the earliest texts did not have it, but you can say some did. My intent was not to discredit the whole gospel, just to repond to Jetta about differences within the gospels that suggest more than just differet interpretation (such as different cities for events). Haven, Paul's letters are scattered. Many have been confidently ascribed to one person, however, most will agree that some could not have been the same guy. What is more intersting, in regards to Paul, is the lack of any mention of Jesus of Nazareth, the lack of any of the passion story, etc. Paul states over and over that his "witnessing" came through his readings of the bible...that god revealed things to him about his son "according to the scriptures." Paul's account really is much more mythical and supernatural. It is really fascinating. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
I've ignored this thread since yesterday. It is best when read without interruption. I've enjoyed the historical perspective. I remember when I took my quest for knowledge in that direction for a number of years. I can still remember the day almost 30 years ago when I discovered that large portions of the Beatitudes, from Jesus' sermon on the mount, were found in the Gilgamesh Epic, from early Mesopatamia. That knocked a dent in my core beliefs and sent me into a decade long search for THE TRUTH. My search took me through Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna, Osiris, Amenhotep IV, and a host of others. It took me from Zen to Moroni. In the end, I discovered that the truth is not a religion, or a man, or any church. The truth is in the heart of goodness, where love reigns supreme. When I read something that is attributed to Jesus, I ask myself if this sounds like something from the voice of God. If it does, I acknowledge it as such. It it does not, I do not. I am not alone in Christianity in my approach. Many biblical scholars share my point of view, particulary those involved in the Jesus project. The old saying about not seeing the forest for the trees comes to mind. I try to hear the core of the message. Jesus said "the kingdom of heaven is at hand." What can that mean? I think it means it is here, now, around us and in us. Near death experiences reveal a life after death that I believe almost all are assured, wherever we live, whatever we believe. The lessons of Jesus help us to be better here and now, and for all time. I don't pretend to know how it all works, what is in, and what is not, but I feel pretty sure that most of us are headed to a good after life. I do not believe God judges men more harshly than I do, and there aren't many people I would deny a happy afterlife. I recognize that others cling tenaciously to their tenets which hold otherwise. Can a just God really send 90% of the world's population to eternal damnation? I just do not believe that is my God. He's smarter than Einstein, funnier than Dana Carvey, and more compassionate than Mother Theresa. And if I'm wrong, Big Guy, forgive me. Just my point of view and I could be wrong. ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
I can't even imagine the reaction of the BBS' well-known anti-Christian hypocrites if Francis actually mentioned the word "God" on NBC or something rather than a Christian television show. Wow... I think that would go off the hate charts. ------------------ NOTHING BUT .NET CLUTCHCITY.NET
Clutch, I'm a Christian and I do not understand your above post. Please explain what you mean. There are certainly some Anti-Christian viewpoints on the BBS, but how can they be hypocritical? I've read many strongly felt viewpoints on this thread, but I do not recall any I would characterize as hypocritical. From my perspective, I think it is great that Steve does not fade from announcing his faith in God. I think that is a good thing. I do not agree with those who believe that God cares about the outcome of an NBA game, and it diminishes the majesty of God to suggest that he would favorite the Christians on one team over those on another. Why would he do that? You seem to be taking the discourse as a personal affront. Why? I would really like to know why you find it offensive. I've read the same things as you and I don't feel that any hating is going on here. There are some that believe what can be characterized as fundamentalist Christian views, some who believe in what can be characterized as liberal Christian views, and some who do not share the Christian faith at all. Talk to us, Clutch. What is up with your comment? ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
On the first part of that remark: why exactly doesn't God "care" about the participants...? On the second part, who said that?
Brian, I don't know who said. I do know that someone on the thread said that God cares about the outcome of a game. You have phrased the issue in a manner I did not. You have made it an issue of whether God cares about the participants. Of course he does. He just doesn't care whether they win or lose. Why should he? You do not seriously believe God cares who wins the NBA title, do you? If he did, wouldn't the most devout team (San Antonio) win? If you feel differently, please tell me what it is in the New Testament that you base such a belief upon, because I think it borders on blasphemy. ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
Here it is...as per your request. ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
Brian, here is your post, in pertinent part, from earlier... BrianKagy Administrator Posts: 1690 Registered: Feb 99 posted June 18, 2001 02:08 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, does anyone find it a little silly that a God would really care if the Lakers beat the Sixers, or visa versa? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used to, until I actually learned about Christianity. ___________________________ Brian, you said it. ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
Brian, To help answer your question to Pine, I found two examples at quick glance. today: One comment about whether God cares about who wins/loses sporting events: Since there is nothing else in existance that is perfect and holy, and worthy of glory, God seeks to maximize His Glory. If one team winning means that He is Glorified more in the end, then that is the way things go. kagy (in response to haven): BTW, does anyone find it a little silly that a God would really care if the Lakers beat the Sixers, or visa versa? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I used to, until I actually learned about Christianity. The first one is rather clear-cut, the second is a little vague, but implies the same thing. ------------------ Squatting on old bones and excrement and rusty iron, in a white blaze of heat, a panorama of naked idiots stretches to the horizon. Complete silence-their speech centers are destroyed-except for the crackle of sparks and the popping of singed flesh as they apply electrodes up and down the spine. White smoke of burning flesh hangs in the motionless air. A group of children have tied an idiot to a post with barbed wire and built a fire between his legs and stand watching with bestial curiosity as the flames lick his thighs. His flesh jerks in the fire with insect agony.
Well, disregard my "help" then! ------------------ Squatting on old bones and excrement and rusty iron, in a white blaze of heat, a panorama of naked idiots stretches to the horizon. Complete silence-their speech centers are destroyed-except for the crackle of sparks and the popping of singed flesh as they apply electrodes up and down the spine. White smoke of burning flesh hangs in the motionless air. A group of children have tied an idiot to a post with barbed wire and built a fire between his legs and stand watching with bestial curiosity as the flames lick his thighs. His flesh jerks in the fire with insect agony.
