tacoma -- what is your source on Osiris??? I found nothing about what you're talking about in multiple mythology sources. I'd love to read it and see how many other sources say the same thing. understand this: God did not kill these children. Their mother did. We make choices apart from God everyday...it's the basic concept of free will. We're not God's robots. I do believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation. Otherwise, the cross and His suffering are meaningless. I do not believe God would have his son suffer a horrible death unless it were necessary...the idea here is that mankind needed a savior from sin, the separation between God and man. That's what I believe Jesus is. I would say that belief is what makes one a Christian, quite frankly. Otherwise, there is no acknowledgement of sin and his role in conquering that. Now I have no idea what will ultimately happen...God is merciful. I know I'm certainly in no position to judge who ends up with eternal salvation. But I will not diminish the role of the cross and the price Jesus paid. ------------------
so if Tim McVeigh repented on the injection table, then he gets to go to heaven? but the 6 million jews who died in the holocaust don't? yeah that's fair. ------------------
I think John S. Hall said it best when he said: Jesus was way cool Everybody liked Jesus Everybody wanted to hang out with him Anything he wanted to do, he did He turned water into wine And if he wanted to He could have turned weed into mar1juana Or sugar into cocaine Or vitamin pills into amphetamines He walked on the water and swam on the land He would tell these stories and people would listen He was really cool If you were blind or lame You just went to Jesus And he would put his hands on you And you would be healed That's so cool! He could have played guitar better than Hendrix He could have told the future He could have baked the most delicious cake in the world He could have scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky He could have danced better than Berishnikov Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you could think of Jesus was way cool! He told people to eat his body and drink his blood That's so cool! Jesus was so cool But then some people got jealous of how cool he was so they killed him But then he rose from the dead! He rose from the dead Danced around And went to Heaven I mean, that's so cool! Jesus was way cool! No wonder there are so many Christians Sorry, I couldn't help it. I had to bring a little stupid humor into this. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Max, My sources deal with people who believe he follows a line of Godmen that represented the Sun. Not sure where you'd be able to find many of the books, since as you can imagine, they're aren't many of these type of books to be found at your local book store. I suggest you look at amazon.com. Also, I don't know what your hang up on Osiris is. Osiris is Horus, Horus is Osiris. Kind of like how Jesus was the Son of God, but at the same time represented the Word of God. I really don't know how to explain it more clearly to you....sorry. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 20, 2001).]
outlaw -- first..who are you to judge fair?? seriously...if I'm right, and if there is a God, this is the Creator of the universe!!! He created you...how does fair even enter in to it??? second --- as I said I have no idea who ultimately is saved. clearly mcveigh wasn't repentant at all. he refused to make apology in any way. he never expressed remorse. i don't know his heart, but on the surface he didn't seem to experience any change that would lead me to believe he had made peace with God. having said that, he wouldn't be the first sinner to be saved if he did. that's the idea. sin isn't what we do...it's the condition of man choosing self over God. it's separation between man and creator. Christ came to bridge that gap. He hung out with liars, thieves, prostitutes and the like. I would certainly not limit the power of the Creator of the universe to save even a Timothy McVeigh, if he repented. I ultimately am not going to sit here and say, "he's saved, but he's not." or "she's saved, but those people aren't." Ultimately, I don't know if God will or will not call those people to him. But what I do know is what the Bible says. And my God says that none come to the Father except through the Son. ------------------
i am someone who is not going to waste my time kissing the ass of some egotistical deity who would send someone to eternal damnation simply for not believing in his existence. it's ridiculous! ------------------
tacoma -- not a hangup...I was just interested. In the mythological encyclopedia I found, it mentioned that Horus was distinctly Osiris' son. There was no mention that they were one and the same in a Jesus/Father sort of way. In fact, one of the sources said that Horus is a name used throughout Egyptian mythology over and over again for different people..sort of like having tons of Marys in the New Testament! I would just like to read some sources that claim what you're saying...quite frankly, I'd like to see if they're sources that are reliable or if they're put together by people trying to take a shot at Christianity. (basically the same kind of scrutiny we give certain news articles authored by organizations with an agenda here on these message boards). I looked at completely objective sources...if I can't find it in a library, I'm not real certain I believe it. This is just simple history/mythology. Why wouldn't I be able to find that kind of info in a reference guide or in plain old books about Egyptian mythology??? Certainly it makes me curious. Obviously on the internet you can post all kinds of things...you generally like to see them backed up when they're claimed to be historical fact. That's just not what I've found concerning this topic. I don't mean to insinuate you're not telling the truth...that's not what I mean at all. I do question the motive of your source, though, given the fact it seems the info can't be verified elsewhere. ------------------
Max, is there such thing as an unbiased source when it comes to religion? Would you like me me to list the similarities he has with Krishna(also spelled with a C to some, hmmm Cris(Christ?). Nah, couldn't be. How about with Zoroaster? I'll post them if you want, but I wouldn't doubt the validity of my source, since the author studied at an exclusive mystic school in Greece. Probably the best one in the world, and the author had more sources available to her than you do. Much more.... ------------------
outlaw -- i don't mean to make you upset. I'm just stating what I believe. I'm sorry if I upset you...certainly not what I intended at all. Suffice it to say, being a follower of Jesus Christ requires a leap of faith. I truly hope you'll explore it a little bit. I hope you don't find it offensive that I would hope for that or pray for that. I have, in my mind, undoubtedly seen the effects Jesus Christ has had on peoples' lives. Amazing stuff, really. I'm sure you and others could discount that...but again, I'm just sharing what I believe. I don't find it "ridiculous" that the God who created me demands something of me. I believe and I try to act as He would have me act (though I regretfully fall short time and time again). ------------------
tacoma -- huh??? we're talking about dead religions here. why would they be biased??? it's simply history, right?? i think you just answered my question. Christ derives from the Greek word, christos, meaning the annointed. The Old Testament talks about "the annointed one" as the messiah. How close were the Greeks to the civilizations that worshipped Krishna at the time the "Christ" title was given to Jesus??? What sort of contact did those civilizations have that would lead you to believe there was any influence at all??? I could point out similarities between every major world religion. It doesn't mean there's any correlation that renders one or both meaningless. by the way...Santa...Satan...no!!! Could it possibly be???? ------------------ [This message has been edited by MadMax (edited June 20, 2001).]
What is hell but "eternal separation from God?" It may not be hellfire and brimstone; it might just be like the interstate at 5 PM. But it certainly won't be the splendor of His Eternal Presence-- irregardless of free will. At that point, your decision was made long-ago. Hell may not be punishment per se, as much as it is the "supreme" lost opportunity-- I know, that sounds vulgar. Forgive me. It's YOUR decision not GOD'S. That's what the exercise of free will is all about. The trouble for me is that person(s) who NEVER hear/heard the gospel-- literally. Where do they go? Maybe we need a notion of Purgatory? ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
its ok. i'm not upset. i hope you're not either. i'm not coming at this with total naivety though. I'm a lapsed Catholic and my family are all believers. ------------------
No Max, its not that "simple", but I'm tired of arguing about it. O, here's something for you too look into. Here's where the words demon/devil came from before they were vilified. The word "devil" comes from the Sanskrit/Hindi word "deva," which refers to the good angels of the Hindu pantheon. The root of both "devil" and "deva" means "divine." It was only after Zoroaster and the Persians conquered Hindu territory that they felt compelled to make the Hindu gods into devils! Thus, the Hindu devas became the Persians devils. As Rev. George Cox says, in Mythology of the Aryan Nations (Longmans, 1870, pp. 355, 363): "...the word devil passed into an immense number of forms, the Gothic tieval, diuval, diufal, the Icelandic djofull, Swedish djevful, all of them, together with the Italian, French, and Spanish forms carrying back the word diaboloV [diabolos] to the same root which furnished the Latin Divus, Djovis, and the Sanskrit deva." Likewise, the word "demon" comes from the Greek word "daimon" or "daemon," which originally referred to beings of divine, godly nature - gods, not evil spirits Are these sources to your liking? ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 20, 2001).]
tacoma -- why are we arguing?? this isn't arguing...i simply asked who the source was. i'm curious...why does that mean we're arguing??? did you read the edit to my last post??? what is the connection between the civilizations that worshipped Krishna and the Greeks, where the christos word comes from??? read above...i'd be interested in hearing how that plays out. ------------------
Come one, you disappear for a while, and this is what you come back with? Everyone, Look, from my perspective, religion is a fascinating thing. I have read a great deal from many many religions. This includes pro and con for them as well, not just sterile studies. I have also dealt with religion in terms of architecture, art, philosophy, politics, movies, etc... I thoroughly enjoy discussing religion of any kind. What I do not like is when people get offended or whatever. I generally try to avoid sayings such as "I believe" or "I think" because it is not about pushing my view upon others, I just like to hear what others say. I, therefore, hope that no one thinks I am trying to trash Christianity or anything, I am just interested in interpretation and allowances. As we have seen, everyone seems to fall in a different place. So...umm, what was my point? Oh yeah, this is fun. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
that's interesting, tacoma. I don't doubt that many religions have overrun others by taking over (physically) and declaring their gods to be demons. not sure how that affects this conversation, but it's interesting, nonetheless. Oddly, my Websters New World Dictionary says that daemon is actually of Latin root, not Greek. I don't remember the word from taking Latin in high school. ------------------
Look into reading Wheless' work Max. Here's the Krishna information you asked for..... It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna" which reveals its relation to "Christ". Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly "Christos", which is the same in Greek for "Christ" and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha, and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The story of Krishna as recorded in the ancient Indian legends and texts penetrated the West on a number of occasions. One theory holds that Krishna worship made its way to Europe as early as 800 BC, possibly brought by the Phoenicians. Higgins<----*source* asserts that Krishna worship in Ireland goes back even further, and he points to much linguistic and archaeological evidence of this early migration. Krishna was reinjected into Western culture on several other occasions, including by Alexander the Great after the expansion of his empire and his sojourn to India. It is also claimed that his worship was reintroduced during the first century CE by Apollonius of Tyana, who carried a fresh copy of the Krishna story in writing to the West, where it made its way to Alexandria, Egypt. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 20, 2001).]
BK, I hate to see people of faith and reason get frustrated with facing others who show ignorance of their Lord's teachings, such that you do not like repeating yourself. We could argue that that frustration has caused more conflict in history than any other. Pinetree's recent post to you was expressing centuries of theological and philosophical teachings inspired by a discourse of Theology vs Orthodox Worship, and you isolate his words into pieces to expose its meaning as ignorant (if not sacrilege) to the Logos of your faith. Faith is Simple, but Christianity is not Simplistic There is a common belief that Christianity is simple; we just need a childlike faith. Christianity can be as simple as picking apart Pinetree's post to the point of your frustration for him not understanding something so simple. Christianity may be simple, but it is not simplistic. Real Christians and Scholars can Speak like Pinetree There are historically many "real Christians and Christian scholars" who would not feel compelled to pick at words in such manner, some of who are regarded as the brightest minds in religious history. Pinetree is expressing a centuries old idea that much of the worship of God cannot be done through created or spoken word, such that rigid execution of the Logos incarnate cannot possibly be enough for us to fully understand how to worship Him. You and others are not that far in disagreement with such ecclesiastic teachings. Saint Paul, Saint John the Theologian, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Descarte, Wittgenstein all say Words are not Completely Him You have me close to pulling out some Descartes (a devout Christian rationalist) or Wittgenstein's more thorough linguistic analysis of the Bible. I am a little rusty on this, but the gist is that expressed words as a medium for worship and prayer are a minimum of theological language. Or in Pinetree's words, worship transcends words and expression including the truth vel non of the Logos incarnate. The fact that there exists an inexpressible language that the Bible mentions (Paul, Corinthians--I had to look that one up), you must look beyond the words used by the patristic point of view of the Apostles and the Church. Saint John Taught Literal Interpretation of the Bible is Not Enough Logos is the Son speaking at our level BK, your interpretation of the word is not that far from what others are saying, especially the last two or so posts by Pinetree. Saint John the Theologian was the first to use the term logos in a biblical manner. Logos with a capital L became known as the Son of the Divine Trinity, and thus the Bible is the incarnation of the Logos, expressed within the limits of human understanding, which often uses symbolism to conjure up ideas not expressible in the medium of human language. You indeed tell Pinetree that he was using human words to characterize God, but follow that by likewise using the Logos incarnate to define Worship. Here, you are talking the same as Pinetree. You are both using human language to express the unexpressible, and so were the Apostles. That is the belief of Saint John the Theologian and centuries of Christian scholars who followed. Pinetree is using a Christian rationalist approach that reminds me of Descarte rationalizing St John or St Thomas Aquinas giving faith to Aristotle, and you are using the literal written word of the Bible which St John and Paul insist cannot express complete witness to the Lord. As a bystander who is merely trying to show how close two people are to agreeing, it is unfortunate to see frustration overwhelm your obvious willingness to discuss this topic. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 20, 2001).]
Jeff, I agree completely! I get so irritated at folk who think they have all the answers. I mean education is a great tool, but even the most educated minds of our time struggled with life questions. The best anyone of us can do is to accept our limits. Take our thirst for logic, for example. Can it explain why some people survived the oklahoma bombing while hundreds of others were killed? No! And it will never be able to. BTW Jeff, I do recognize that this may be the one time we have agreed on an issue, even though I took your quote slightly out of context. ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited June 20, 2001).]
