tpl: Christianity is about having a personal relationship with God through his son Jesus Christ. He sent him down to earth in human form so that he could spread the gospel and die on the cross to absolve mankind of their sins so that they can go receive eternal life - which is going to heaven. However, the most important thing about all of this is that Jesus came back to life three days later, just like he said he would. He was able to defeat death and conquer sin. But in order to receive this gift of salvation you have to believe that Christ is the son of God and he died for your sins and that he rose again on the third day. Most people have a hard time with the last thing - resurrecting from the dead. Christianity is not based on any other religion and also unique in that it is the only one that gives you eternal salvation through faith (and not through works, good deeds, etc.) and a personal relationship with God (not god). If you based your life on works and good deeds then who is to say whether you did enough? Christianity gives you that absolute. ------------------ Ni ai chou mei!
You choose to ignore the fact that some of these stories are not just slight "resemblances" to the story of Jesus , they're almost identical. My whole argument is that some/many elements of his story have been altered over the years. It's hard to ignore the facts, and early church father's even admitted that their story of Jesus was very similar to that of other Godmen, and their only excuse was that the Devil created the stories of these other Godmen to fool the good Christians. I just have a hard time believing every aspect of Jesus' life. I have no problem with the whole originality thing concerning morals. There is a similar moral message in all religions. ------------------
JettaKnight: That's not *Christianity*, so much as Protestantism . BrianKagy: Not trying to hold anything back. I'd email you if you were sufficiently interested. You know how argumentative and effusive I am on here, but I don't really see a point in getting into an argument that would offend many people without any chance at anyone understanding more. Some discussions, imo, are better in person or in books... hard to treat them responsibly, otherwise. And of course, I'd come off too harsh and abrasive. I usually manage to do so. People are just too touchy about religion. Believe it or not, I don't like offending people. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
i just don't get how you guys seem so 100%sure of your faith. has jesus talked to you in your dreams or something? i guess i just need some kind of tanglible evidence instead of basing my life on a book that was written by men a few thousand years ago and which has been translated ad infinitum during that timespan. if i'm supposedly going to hell for just being who i am then that's fine with me. i'll send the rest of you a postcard. ------------------
Haven, doesn't the idea of salvation through faith deal more the ideas of Calvinism? Jetta, Early Christian apologists admitted that Christianity was an old concept. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 18, 2001).]
TPL: Sometime read Luther... he was all about "faith" being all that matters. Calvin radicalized this and brought in predestination. pretty funny actually - Calvin taught that the people who were going ot heaven had already been selected... and that there earthly success was a symbol of their destiny. So everyone worked really hard to accumulate wealth. I've heard it argued that Calvinism was responsible for the economic success of Europe in the Enlightenment, era. And you know, the Netherlands was the richest country in the world for a time . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
Correct, my bad. In my defense this message is echoed more often volume-wise in the various letters which comprise most of the latter half of the New Testament. I will stand by my inital point that for instance 'Mathew 28:18-20' was not, infact, writen by Jesus himself, but rather transcribed over time through many translators, etc. Also, one must take into account that it was common practice 'quote' someone during this period when infact the quote was a paraphrase or generalisation. For instance, arastotle's address to the Roman Senate, writen by Plato, was infact never actualy heard by Plato, according to most scholars, yet it is considered perfectly acceptable to attribute those exact words to him. As for your comments about understanding god, that is my point exactly. In the sequal to Dante's Inferno I plan to write one of these days, ( ) the tenth circle of hell is exclusively occupied by those whose belief in faith eclipses their belief in knowledge. Their punishment would be to explain what they believe using words and phrases which they have never before heard spoken in church or in relation to god. How can you truly hope to love god if you do not first endevor to understand god? Yet most of the most ferverent chrisitans I know are limited in a parochial mideveal belief that the misinterpretations of the bible which they have been feed as doctrine. Imagine a doctor writing a paper baesed on the translation of a single document given to them by a friend. They would be laughed out of the comunity. The concept that the bible is somehow final personal writ handed down from god directly to man is laughable. Go back and read the historical accounts writen by Christian Scholars. What to know why Revelations is there? It was the compramise choice as least offensive among many end-of-the world books writen by chrisians. The idea was to arbitrarly pick one to keep anyone from writing and spreading others. It was that arbitrary. Also, the common Christian misinterpritation of the Old Testament is laughable. Find a real jewish scholar, explain to him the stories from your perspective and then listen to him laugh at you in Hebrew. The bottom line is that to paraphrase Jesus as quoted in the bible, beware false prophits. Most ultraconservative christians will speak to you all day about the liberal media bias, but just assume no 'media bias' from 1500 years of hand transcribed, ferverently commited belevers reporting the word of god to you. Tell me if this really makes sense? [This message has been edited by Ottomaton (edited June 18, 2001).]
haven -- you think christians actually do less for the benefit of others than non-believers?? really?? that's funny...we're in the midst of disaster relief right now in Houston. Who has stepped up?? Where are people going for help??? Atheist centers??? no...they're going to churches. Second Baptist and Lakewood are the centers of relief for these people in this town right now. That is the typical response of churches in communities dealing with these situations. I recognize that being a Christian doesn't mean you will do those things..but to say the church doesn't take care of people is crazy. My church is relatively small, but supports tons of people in need. I don't see any other organizations that support people in the mass numbers that churches do. I'm certainly not going to push my religion on you...but I don't think Steve Francis saying, "Jesus Christ has made a difference in my life, and He is my Lord and Savior" is necessarily pushing anything down your throat. The criticism of Christians and our faith on this message board is unbelievable!! Not from all of you, but certainly from some of you. Someone said this country was founded on religious freedom, and so we shouldn't have it pushed on us. No kidding!! But that's from the govt!!! Steve Francis has the right to talk about Jesus whenever he wants...because of those freedoms!! God does nothing short of command me to disciple. Obviously, I am not as intrusive with as some, mostly because I don't believe "in your face" Christianity is effective. But I will never deny that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, too. I am sorry if that bothers you, but I'm much more fearful of disobeying God than I am of offending you. Sorry. Jesus, Himself, was pretty offensive to most people, too. People are still offended today...to Christians, that's not much of a surprise. In fact, the Bible tells us to expect it. ------------------
MadMax: But there are dramatically more Christians than atheists in the world, and especially in Houston, Texas. Furthermore, atheists don't exactly join together, united by their atheism. Atheists generally find such behavior to encourage group mentality... of course, there are weirdos, like "Faith Atheism." An agnostic or atheist is going to contribute to relief individually, or in a secular relief group. I'm sure your church has helped immeasurably... I'm simply unpersuaded than on average, Christians do more good deeds than anyone else. I don't have a problem at all with Francis expressing his religious beliefs. Did anybody? ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
I kind of do in the same sense that I have trouble listning to Rosie O'Donnell using her television show as an excuse to discuss her political beliefs. What about being a whiny, anoying talk show host makes her an expert political pundit? Its fine in private conversations to express 'this is what I believe and why' or post on a message board like this which promotes multiple points of view, but to use her bully pulpit to talk about things in which she is not qualified to talk is both irresponsible and dangerous. Imagine me walikng into a hospital and trying to heal people just because I think I would be a good doctor. There's a reason you have to go to medical school, there's a reason that most of the people on the McGlaucklan(sp?) group have formal training and experience in either economics or political science, and there is a reason that most legitimate religious leaders go to seminary or have doctorates of divinity. [This message has been edited by Ottomaton (edited June 18, 2001).]
Max, please spare us the Christians-as-victims routine. you're hardly an oppressed group. ------------------
haven -- that part wasn't directed to you...yes..someone said very early on that there were tired of people expressing their beliefs in Christ. I'm using the atheist groups to be a smartass...my point is, I don't see other groups of any sort (atheist or not) step up time and time again when someone needs help than churches do. My church supports single moms, refugees, people just down on luck, etc. all the time! We so easily hear criticism for the Inquisition (something that happened centuries ago), while no one mentions that if you need help right now due to flooding, the church is the first place you are to go! And these aren't govt funded entities, I might point out. This aid exists because of the goodwill of the folks who attend these churches. They're the ones out volunteering. The mission committee at my little church alone has us involved with some community project nearly every week. These are people giving tons of time and money. And even groups that you would probably assume are secular, ultimately have Christ at their heart (habitat for humanity, for example). To talk about the Inquisition and all the people killed ages ago is silly. I don't hear those same people criticism Hakeem for being part of a religion that brings about world terrorism, TODAY. (yes I realize there are different sects of Islam...there are also different sects of Christianity..and guess what?? most today don't support the kinds of things that occurred during the Inquisition!) Chrisitans are open targets today...it's hip to criticize and poke fun at them in the open so everyone can see how smart you are. We don't see that with other major world religions. Instead, we hear tolerance preached for their different beliefs. Again, that shouldn't surprise me...it's been hip to persecute Christians for about 2000 years now. ------------------
MadMax: When was the last time anybody other than a Christian was President of the United States? How many Senators, Congressmen, or other high-ranking government officers are not Christian? Hardly a persecuted group . I do agree that sometimes "intellectuals" are more tolerant of other religions. Tolerance should be universal. But I think Christians are making out pretty well . Other religions are fallible too. For example, it's very problematic that the Koran actually states that Holy Land may never be surrendered... well, what's Holy Land? Well, any territory where a Muslim lives . Sorry, don't want to offend anyone... just found that funny. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
Speaking of the floods, a lot of people are going around thanking god for being spared from the flood waters. Does that mean the thousands of people who were affected somehow deserved to be? Did the 22 victims who died not pray hard enough? this song sums up my feelings on the subject: ------------------ [This message has been edited by outlaw (edited June 18, 2001).]
just because our president is christian, doesn't mean that it isn't stylish to pick on Christianity. I'm not saying we face persecution like other Christians do around the world (particularly afghanistan and iran), but i've personally been persecuted and made to feel stupid for what i believe in. maybe that doesn't fit into your definition of persecution, but it does mine. ------------------
MadMax: The criticism of Christianity you hear is the result of people disliking the dominant culture in the US. Dominant culture, almost no matter what it is, is going to be perceived as phillistine and bourgeois by some. Why? IMO (certainly could be mistaken), it's because the most dominant cultural schemata has been popularized, vulgarized, and made appropriate for mass consumption. "Intellectuals" and such are always going to dislike this. I don't think it's possible to have a terrific "mass culture." As soon as you get a better one, it gets popularized ! ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
outlaw --what's amazing to me is that the Creator of the universe actually cares enough about you to value your opinion. but i know He does. so while you're ragging on those who are at those churches, tell me...what have you done to help those people? the homeless are likely being helped by a church...the families of the flood victims are likely being counseled by those at their church. what are you doing?? yes, there is pain in the world. and without an eternal perspective, it becomes really hard to understand. yes, a good deal of our pain is self-created. yes, there are natural disasters which kill people and cause people harm. but maybe there is good that comes from tragedy. and maybe it's easier to point out all the bad things of this world and blame God, then it is to give Him credit for all the miracles and wonders we encounter everyday. ------------------
MadMax: Well, I actually volunteer weekly at a local Immigrant Resource Center, to help people who are having trouble adjusting to the US. Furthermore, I work at a soup kitchen every other week for 4 hours. During the school year, I'm involved in programs to teach inner-city kids how to read. No compensation. I'm an agnostic, who's 51% sure God isn't real. I'm sure many Christians do more, but I'm also pretty certain that many do less. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
