No, this statement is not true. The message to Christians to spread the gospel was not a "perogative" from Timothy, Paul or any of the other religious leaders. But, rather from Christ himself, which is also known as The Great Commission. He instructed in Mathew 28:18-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." So you see this "perogative" came from God himself. This is also why so many Christians feel they need to reach out and spread the good news to anyone who will listen. Thus the TV evangelists, street preachers, and people knocking on doors. These methods sometimes work and sometimes don't. I think there is a lot out there who need to learn to be more tactful in their approach. There's so much more I want to say on this but I just can't put it all into words b/c reading some of these posts on religion has me so frustrated. One thing that I really want to address is the issue of Christians and hypocricy. So many of you want to rule out or dismess Christianity because of other Christians who say one thing and do another. People do not make up Christianity but rather Christ is the foundation. Understanding that he is the Son of God and believing this is the capstone and arch of Christianity. Don't look to other imperfect human beings to provide the truth, look to the one who led a perfect life and without any hyprocricy. Jesus always meant what he said and said what he meant and he practice what he preached. If you want to find the truth look for it in Christ. And don't make excuses for not looking for the truth and blame it on other Christians that you know who have failed to live up to their end of the bargain b/c they are not infallible. ------------------ Ni ai chou mei!
tpl, thank you for all the information! It made for great reading. I am going to apologize in advance for nitpicking over some of it, when I agree with your general premise (that Christianity derives a number of its beliefs and practices from other religions). I agree with rimmy that the best place to look to see influence over Christian practices is closer to home. For instance, I believe that the celebration of Christmas on December 25 was primarily about replacing a traditional pagan (Druidic) holiday that took place close to that date than a celebration of Jesus' actual birthdate (which is said to have been sometime in the spring?). As to Buddhism, here is something I pulled up from a search on Buddhism (I claim no knowledge myself): Shakyamuni Buddha, the historical founder of Buddhism, was born in India 3,000 years ago. There are various opinions concerning the exact dates of his birth and death, but according to Buddhist tradition, he is said to have been born April 8, 1029 BC and died on February 15, 949 BC, although other Buddhist scholars place his birth five hundred years later. No definite conclusion has been reached. Shakyamuni Buddha was the son of Shuddhodana, the king of the Shakyas, a small tribe whose kingdom was located in the foothills of the Himalayas south of what is now central Nepal fifteen miles from Kapilavastu. Shakya of Shakyamuni is taken from the name of this tribe and muni means sage or saint. His family name was Gautama (Best Cow) and his given name was Siddhartha (Goal Achieved) though some scholars say this is a title bestowed on him by later Buddhists in honor of the enlightenment he attained. http://www.ezlink.com/~dozer/fc_sgi/bios/shakyamuni2.htm I think that information (if accurate) refutes the notion that Buddha was supposedly born to a virgin, on December 25. Regarding Quetzacoatl: He was one of the gods of the Aztecs. The Aztecs themselves date their civilization from 1168 AD. Representations of a feathered snake (traditional representation of Q) occur as early as the Teotihuacán civilization (3rd to 8th century AD) on the central plateau of Mexico. Ergo, nothing about Quetzacoatl would have been recorded in the library at Alexandria, which was destroyed in 48 BC by Julius Ceasar. I have heard more than one writer agree with you that that incident set civilization back 1,000 years (but that might be a bit of an exxageration). The library was rebuilt, but the scrolls contained were lost. The library was again destroyed during the civil war that occurred under the Roman emperor Aurelian in the late 3rd century AD. As to the Bible itself: Existing parchment fragments, in the original greek, date to the 2nd century AD (shortly after it was first written). Gothic / German translations, still in existance, date to the 4th century AD (English didn't exist at the time!). So it is difficult to argue that critical elements of Christian belief (such as the crucifiction) were altered at some later date. Outside influences had to come before then. ------------------ I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip that I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
Theology is crazy! TPL: I recognize the connections Christianity has with early Pagan and European traditions. It is commonly known among scholars. In all honesty, I don't veiw religious traditions as right, wrong or indifferent. I see them as different paths to attain a greater knowledge of who we are and what we are doing here. The stories and traditions are just interesting ways of making those concepts accessible to our not-completely-evolved human sensibilities. Space Ghost: The thread was moved because it was turning into a religous debate that really has no place in the Rockets forum. On this thread... I really think debating relgion's wrongness or rightness is and incredibly difficult thing to do. Faith is so personal that to debate its merits would be like debating the merits of how our voices sound. Faith is wrapped up so deeply in our psychology and thought process that it is nearly impossible to separate and discuss rationally. Now, the subject of faith in sports is a little different and one that can be openly discussed, I think, without deriding the particular faith of the athlete. ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
Rimbaud, I'm well aware of the mystery cults/secret societies of ancient Rome, and I think they are in part responsible for the changing of the story of Jesus/the contents of the bible throughout the years. Another influence on the Christians, which was probably far greater than any others, was that of the Gnostics. You can see that the Greek word 'gnosis'(knowledge) is derived from "Gnostics" as they were the keepers of the ancient secrets of the ancient world, in particular the stories/rituals of ancient Egypt (the myth of Horus/Osiris among other things). Noted Gnostics include Pythagoream and Plato. I'm glad you brough up Paul, because the influence of his area/city has led me to believe, as does much of the other parts of the Bible, that the Bible is based upon Astrotheological concepts. Other things have added to my suspicion of this such as the finding of the Zodiac with 12 signs and 4 cardinal points from Bet-Alpha, Gaililee, 1-2 centuries BC. Before I go on, let me just say that I believe in Jesus Christ, but I feel that his story is not completely accurate and some parts of Christianity have a bad history, so if any of you thought I was anti-christian or something like that you're wrong Let me delve into the Gospels. By the year 325 AD, the origal gospels and writings had all been lost or destroyed due to the "Council of Nicea" and the "retouching" of 506 AD under Emperor Anastasius, which included "revision" of the Church Father's work. Let me quote the Catholic encyclpedia Enterprising spirits responded to this natural craving by pretended gospels full of romantic fables, and fantastic and striking details;their fabrications were eagerly read and accepted as true by common folks who were devoid of any critical faculty and who were predisposed to believe what so luxuriously fed their pious curiosity. Both Catholics and Gnostics were concernced in writing these fictions, the former had no motive other than that of a pious fraud. Rimbaud, the Gnostics are the ones who drew the pictures of Christ in the catacombs at Rome. The Christians reportedly went on to believing that these pictures represented Jesus, while the gnostics called them fools for believing a story they had made up to be actually true. Please don't tell me that Gnosticism was a corruption of the Christian religion and only arose after the inception of the former, because that's simply not true. I find the early Christian fathers to be incredible liars such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian(ex-Pagan who later gave up Christianity),and Eusebius. Eusebius even wrote a chapter titled " How it may be lawful and fitting to use Falsehood as medicine, and for the Benefit of those who want to be Decieved". I could go into how they openly admitted that Christianity was not a new idea, but I don't want to spend the time writing down all the quotes Here's another interesting fact. As many of you may know the Emperor Augustine, the "good" Christian, made Christianity Rome's official religion. What many don't know is that the next Emperor, Julian, immediately went back to Pagan traditions and renounced Christianity. Also, Augustine was a former Gnostic but then converted to Christianity after he was promised a high position in the newly formed Roman Catholic Church. Keep in mind, this was a guy who actually believed in the legend of Romulus and Remus. Pertaining to the New Testament, the first "New Testament" wasn't put together until the 4th century by Marcion of Pontus. You see the room for error there? Putting together the story of Jesus Christ hundreds of years after his purported death. Here's an interesting quote from Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank..." What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" Here are the two Godmen most similar to Jesus Christ in story Horus/Osiris of Egypt born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by 3 wise men His earthly father was named "Seb"("Joseph) He was of royal descent At age 12, he was a child teacher in the temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana(Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist") who was decapitated He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (The two Johns) He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus("El-Osiris") from the dead he walked on water His personal epithet was "Iusa", the "ever becoming son" of "Ptah", the "Father". He was thus called the "Holy Child" He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted "sayings of Iusa" He was transfigured on the mount He was crucified between 2 thieves, buried for 3 days in a tomb, and resurrected He was also the "The Way, the Truth, the Light, Messiah, God's Annointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word Made Flesh, the Word of Truth He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish("Ichthys") Lamb and Lion He came to fulfill the Law Horus was called "the KRST" or "annointed one" Like Jesus, Horus was supposed to reign for 1000 years I'm not going to talk about Krishna, because it's just more of the same , but here's some more interesting facts about Horus.Inscribed about 3500 years ago on the walls of the Temple of Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the virgin Isis that she will concieve Horus; with Kneph, the "Holy Ghost", impregnating the Virgin; and with the infant being attened by 3 Kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the Virgin mother Isis-the original "Madonna and Child". As I'm sure many of you know, the Sun was held in very high regard in the ancient World and here's why. This will also explain why you see so many of the Godmen's birthdates on December 25th(This will explain it all Sam) the sun "dies" for 3 days at the winter solstice, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th The sun of God is "born a virgin" which refers to both the new or "virgin" moon and the constellation of Virgo The Sun's birth is attended by the "bright Star", either Sirius/Sothis or the planet Venus, and by the "3 Kings", representing the 3 stars in the belt of Orion At it's zenith, or 12 noon, the sun is in its house or heavenly temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his father's work" at "age" 12. the sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30. the sun is the "carpenter" who builds his daily "houses" or 12 two-hour divisions The Sun's "followers" or "disciples" are the 12 signs of the Zodiac, through which the sun must pass the sun is annointed when it's rays dip into the sea the sun "changes water into wine" by creating rain, ripening the grape on the vine and fermenting the grape juice the sun "walks on water", referring to its reflection the sun "calms the sea" as he rests in the "boat of heaven" (Mt. 8:23-7) When the sun is annualy and monthly reborn, he brings life to the "solar mummy", his previous self, raising it from the dead The sun is the Lion when in Leo, the hottest time of the year, called the "throne of the lord" The sun is "crucified" between the 2 thieves of Sagittarius and Capricorn the sun is hung on a cross, which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter The sun darkens when it "dies" The Sun does a "stutter step" at the winter solstice, unsure whether to return life or "resurrect", doubted by his "twin" Thomas the sun is the 'light of the world', and comes on clouds and every I shall see him' the sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of Mankind" The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo The sun is the word or Logos of God the sun was considered the judge of the living and the dead who returned to Earth "on a white horse" Well, I hope you didn't find this information too boring . ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 18, 2001).]
Thanks for the info TPL. Pretty neat stuff. Religious anthropolocy is fun. BTW, does anyone find it a little silly that a God would really care if the Lakers beat the Sixers, or visa versa? I just love it when people play for victory. LIke god is that petty, or really wants Notre Dame to beat Nebraska. I've never seen much of a correllation between "good" and "religious" in my life. I've known some fine, religious people. I've also known some really great people who were atheists. I can't even say that Christians are better people, in general. They tend to do fewer drugs, and have less sex, maybe... but they don't do more charity work, or act kinder to other people. Oh... and God has pretty much been dead in Europe for a century. It doesn't seem to have caused rampant chaos, or anything. It's odd... you have all those beautiful cathedrals there, but nobody really believes. Americans seem to think that you either have to be religious, or be a nihilist. That issue depressed me for a long time. Then I read the existentialists, and Nietzsche... and came to realize that religion is only one way to self-justification and contentment. I think that in Europe, this attitude is common. I think Americans like all-or-nothing situations . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
Haven, A few years ago, Randall Cunningham said he firmly believed that the side that prayed the hardest would win the game. That is why the Vikings always won. Of course, they ended up losing to a Falcons team with legal problems. Dion Sanders also said that Jesus helps him catch interceptions. His numbers are down. Arrogance is a funny thing. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Rimbaud: Funny how his interceptions went down as his body broke down. Guess Jesus just helps those with good muscle tone . That explains the lack of divine interventionin my life! Wheee... I knew there must be a reason! My dad told me that in college he and his friends used to get completely smashed and then go to the chapel to pray with rosaries for victory the next day. No wonder they won so much at Notre Dame . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
RocketKid: I am not part of any denomination, the church that I am a part of is a non-denominational Bible church. One comment about whether God cares about who wins/loses sporting events: Since there is nothing else in existance that is perfect and holy, and worthy of glory, God seeks to maximize His Glory. If one team winning means that He is Glorified more in the end, then that is the way things go. It's not as simple as seeing who thanks God in the post game interview for giving him the abilities to play well. Only God can fully comprehend the amount of Glory given to Him by all the people who were in some way or another effected by the game. So, do I pray for the Rockets? No. I just enjoy them and hope that they win, knowing that whether they do or do not, God is still being Glorified in the end. ------------------ It's Clutch's City and we're all just living in it...
My goodness, I had no idea that God was such a narcissist. Why would God give a crap if he's glorified or not? If God's like that, well, he's a megalomaniac ;P. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
I used to, until I actually learned about Christianity. I will buy a beer for anyone who can explain to me how this remark by rimbaud perfectly illustrates his lack of understanding of Christianity. Why would you presume that a Christian would be able to explain all God's reasoning? [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited June 18, 2001).]
BrianKagy: I go to a Catholic school, which requires a full year in theology + some religious philosophy. I've also taken an additional philosophy/theology course on top of that. I've become an agnostic/leaning towards atheist while at college. What I've learned, has actually turned me off. Christianity is fine if you emphasize the good parts, but the bad things are definitely still there. There is definitely a dark side , to it... and I'm not just talking "crusades, inquisition," etc. I think there are some real ethical problems with it. Don't want to get into that here, since I'd probably end up getting bashed by everyone . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Please, indulge us. Tell us more. [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited June 18, 2001).]
Ugh! You are missing the whole point of Christianity. Crusades, inquistion, etc were a result of misguided people, it has nothing to do with what Christianity itself is all about. ------------------ Ni ai chou mei!
Swindle? BrianKagy: No, I refuse to be baited . JettaKnight: I know, that's what I was saying. I don't care about that. I'm concerned with some problematical ethical components of Christianity. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
Haven, I'm sorry about that-- I didn't mean you were like Swindle. He, at one point, claimed that cc.net had done some awful things that he wasn't able to comment on. That's what your remark reminded me of. I definitely didn't mean to imply YOU were at all like Swindle and I apologize if you thought I was doing so. [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited June 18, 2001).]
Christians believe that Tlazolteotl is the goddess of love, right? ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Okay, I know you said you didn't want to get into it but ethical elements? I'd really, really like to know what these "ethical problems" are. ------------------ Ni ai chou mei!
Please explain to me what Christianity is all about. Do you believe that it is an original religion? Do you believe it expresses a message that hasn't already been introduced by previous, older religions? Please, don't think I'm trying to insult any of you, I'd just like your honest opinion for these questions. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 18, 2001).]
Please. You already think you know what Christianity is "about". Why would you want me to explain it to you? Why is 'originality' such a hang-up for you...? If I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that He died on the cross to absolve me of my sins, and that anyone who believes in Him is saved, what do I care if there are other religions that bear resemblance to Christianity or share some of its moral teachings? (Please bear with the constant re-edits here) What does any of that have to do with my faith in Him? [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited June 18, 2001).]
