So you would Retch when and if Steve Francis holds up a Championship Trophy and says thank You God? People can say thank you God But It only matters what they feel inside . I love Hakeem Olajuwon But I disagree with his religion. Mostly all of us here are Rockets fans , In the offseason we all argue over politics , entertainment , religion . But The Rockets bring us together as people with the common interest of helping our team , Much like a business or a church - Just focus on your common interest and not on your differences . ------------------
--------------------------------------------- Actually its quite the opppsite . Jesus "Hung Out" with Hookers and Tax collectors but when a Rich man showed himself humble , Jesus had no problem recognizing his faith and granting his request . Asking for the courage to help lead your team is not less significant to God over Helping the sick or healing the blind. ------------------
today: Wish granted. Moving this to the Hangout Forum. ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited June 17, 2001).]
Now that this has been moved, I'll share my few comments on the subject. Honestly, I have no problem with athletes professing their faith or going on faith-based religious programs to discuss it. Good for them. The world needs a little more faith. However, I find it hard to believe that many of those who support an athlete's decision to express his faith in public would feel as comfortable if the predominant faith of athletes was not Christianity. When Mahmoud Abdul Rauf refused to stand for the national anthem because he felt it was contrary to his Islamic faith, he was booed and ridiculed, yet it was a choice motivated by his faith. It wasn't like he was doing drugs or beating his wife. He was simply choosing to express his religious beliefs in a public forum and he was chastised for it. I think that players like Hakeem Olajuwon and Shareef Abdur Rahim as Muslims and Robert Parrish as a Buddhist are obviously good representatives of their faith and their sport. They are all model citizens who extol virtue and honor. There are many Christians who do the same and I for one find that laudable. I would just like to see some consistency applied to the subject and to those with differing faiths and, for that matter, to those who choose to not be religous. ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
Have we not learned from Charlie Ward that they can go hand in hand? Personally, I could care less what Steve does on some Christian TV station, if he wants to do it, go right on ahead. However, if he were to start mentioning that becoming/being Christian in every other interview, there's a problem. Physical acts like Abdul-Rauf's are fine by me, as he's not asking anyone else to follow his lead. And not stepping on anyone's toes. I didn't see Hakeem Olajuwon thanking any religious figures, because religion belongs outside of sports and outside of general society. It belongs on its own level and needs to be kept separate. I am a religious person myself. But, I question the need to profess and recruit that many people feel obligated. Those who will come, will come. There is a difference between what Steve did here, and others. He can host his Christian Talk Show on his spare time for all I care, as long as he doesn't bring it in to the basketball world, by doing things like mentioning Jesus Christ every interview. Jeff has hit it on the head. A practicing Christian would not feel alienated by such comments. Those who are non denominational, or of a less populous religion, feel and are alienated by comments. America was partially founded for religious freedom, so why would would people now want to alienate the other religions? ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
Jeff, you seem to be very intelligent in regards to religion. Explain to me how Christianity isn't just a parody of Masonry. I'll give you a list of Gods whose characteristics I feel early Christians took from to form Christ(their replacement of the Sun in Masonry and other religions because most religions held the sun in high regard, and Masons worshipped the Sun like Christians do Christ) Anyways, here's the list Adad and Marduk of Assyria, who was considered "the word" Adonis, Aesclepius, Apollo(who was ressurected at the vernal equinox as the lamb), Dionysus, Hercules, and Zeus of Greece Alcides of Thebes, divine redeemer born of a virgin around 1200 BC Attis of Phyrgia Baal or Bel of Babylon/Phoenicia Balder and Frey of Scandanavia Bali of Afghanistan Beddru of Japan Buddha and Krishna of India Chu Chulainn of Ireland Codom and Deva Tat of Siam Crite of Chaldea Dahzbog of the Slavs Dumuzi of of Sumeria Fo-Hi, Lao-Kiun, Tien, and Chang Ti of China whose birth was attended by heavenly music, angels, and shephards Hermes of Egypt/Greece, who was born of a virgin Maia and called the "Logos" because he was the Messenger or Word of the heavenly father, Zeus Hesus of the Druids and Gauls Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt Indra of Tibet/India Ieo of China, who was "the great prophet, lawgiver and savior" Issa/Isa of Arabia, who was born of the Virgin Mary and was the "Divine Word" Jao of Nepal Jupiter/Jove of Rome Mithra of Persia/India Odin/Wodin/Woden/Wotan of the Scandanavians, who was "wounded with a spear" Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece Quetzacoatl of Mexico Quirinius of Rome Salivahana of southern India, who was a divine child, born of a virgin, and was the son of a carpenter, and whose name or title means "cross-borne"("Salvation) I could continue naming lesser Gods who I feel contributed to the early church father's depiction of him, but I think I named enough . I'll talk about the similarities between Christ and the very similar Gods I listed later. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 17, 2001).] [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 17, 2001).]
To all those people saying religion is bad because it has caused many many deaths throughout history. I don't see how people can argue that the world would be better without religion. True, much blood has been spilled, and many deaths are a direct result of religious views in one way or another, but since religion has been present in nearly every culture since the beginning of recorded history, who can really say whether or not life would be better without it? How could anyone really know? ------------------ CC.NET Sim League Web Page My Team (Sonics) Feeling claustrophobic, like the walls are closing in. Blood stains on my hands, and I don't know where I've been. I'm in trouble for the things I haven't got to yet. I'm chomping at the bit, and my palms are getting wet. Sweating Bullets Runnin', Ravin', Endin', Out.
[/b][/QUOTE] Actually its quite the opppsite . Jesus "Hung Out" with Hookers and Tax collectors but when a Rich man showed himself humble , Jesus had no problem recognizing his faith and granting his request . Asking for the courage to help lead your team is not less significant to God over Helping the sick or healing the blind. [/b][/quote] Ok... lets look at it like this. God has a plan for the way people should act, as well as praise him (her/it). For instance, say I prayed to god for the courage to kill my parents because I want their inheritance. I think we can all agree that this type of prayer would mot meet favorably with god's blessing. I think we can also agree, therefore, that god would not grant you the aformentioned courage. Supposition one is: Prayers which are in opposition to God's plan for the world would not be granted. Given supposition one, we can also say, conversely, that if I prayed for courage to help my dying parents forsake their godless comunist humanist ways, accept Jesus Christ at their lord and savior, and donate all of their fortune to missionaries feeding starving oppressed serbian babies of christian parentage are more likely to be granted. Supposition two: Prayers which are in accordance with god's plan for mankind and the world are more likely to be granted. Now we reach the somewhat hazy territory of prayers that fall between direct opposition to god's plan and those in accordance with it. Using logic, one could deduce that If I prayed to god for courage persevere and play all the way through 'Starlancer' on my PC it would be recieved more favorably that killing my parents, yet less favorably than feeding starving christian babies. Now, you might argue the fact that professing your faith in public can only cause others to see gods might and convert. This is a falacy. For instance, say I live in Vancouver and think Steve Francis is a punk. I see him professing his faith and am turned off and go become a Hari Krishna. The message that Steve Francis brings is good, but the messanger could be, in some eyes, tainted. Others, however, may be from Houston and would be inspired by this message. It's a mixed blessing. Also, though there is a clear message in the New Testament that one should convert others, there are two problems with this: 1. This perogative doesn't come directly from god, but rather religious leaders, like Timmothy. This message is therefore tainted by the impure bias of humanity and original sin. 2.This perogative does not take into account the impersonal format of mass media. It's one thing to minister to the great unwashed masses in the personal, one-on-one style exemplified by posters such as today. His is a heart felt personal invitation to ZRB. Francis' message, however is far less personal. As is proven, ZRB is not swayed towards Christianity by Francis' message, despite being a Rockets fan, but is rather repulsed. This type of reaction, in effect, is not isolated and may in fact account for the popularity of "boutique" religions such as Budahism, and Wicca among young people. These people see the attraction of the pure message of Christianity, Buddahism, etc. but are put off by the impure nature of the Christians. Not having a large sample of Buddhists, they only see the message, and not the messanger. These impersonal mass-media religious message, therefore, do not help further god's plans for the world and would therefore would not have god's blessing. BTW, jesus hanging out with hookers is the perfect example of preaching by doing, not by saying. He showed them his faith & piety but did not scold them for the lack of theirs. ------------------
1. This perogative doesn't come directly from god, but rather religious leaders, like Timmothy. This message is therefore tainted by the impure bias of humanity and original sin. Bingo. Church law is fallible. I've looked hard and long into Christianity because of the impact it's had on Western thinking. ------------------
Hmmm This is about Steve Francis ... so why exactly was this moved again? ------------------ "Bada Bing!"
tpl, I'm guessing that you meant "derivation" and not "parody"... That is an interesting list, and I'm sure in some instances true. But how exactly did "early Christians" derive their religion from those in India, China, Japan, and Mexico? I'm pretty sure the European world (where Christianity mainly existed in its early days) didn't have contact with China until the 13th century (Polo) and didn't have contact with Mexico until 1492, when Columbus sailed the ocean blue. ------------------ I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip that I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
I just wish that people could keep religion personal. I really dislike the whole organized religion thing. There's too much hypocracy. I do dislike the door-to-door religious salesmen, and the whole religious outreach. If christians are so secure in their faith, why do they have to go on TV and talk about it? If they really believe in it, why do they constantly talk about it? It seems that they are trying to convince themselves of their own beliefs. I do believe that churched based organizations and faith can be a positive for certain people. Especially the kind of people that have nothing else in their lives and need something to believe in. If faith does stop someone from killing themselves in despair, I'm all for it. I really just wish that people could keep it to themselves, and off the air. Still, it's their right. Don't mind me if it bugs me to no end. ------------------ Protrolls.com! RITQAIOCLHTPFOTFWBPTD
Sam, My understanding is that Christianity is based upon the belief that Jesus Christ came to earth as the Word of God(God in the flesh). That's why I listed those different Godmen. The information from other areas of the world/older societies came from a much earlier date. You have to remember that the stories of these Godmen predate Christ's purported arrival by hundreds and sometimes thousands of years. Most of this info was kept at the Library of Alexandria whose goal was to have a written copy of every work(story or invention ideas, etc) in the world. Much trade ran through this area, and stories from other cultures naturally made their way here and they were recorded. As you may know, this library was burned down by Roman troops, which by the way I feel put back civilization by 1000 years, but many of the papers were salvaged. As far as the Mexico reference, the Catholics took elements of their worship and used them, and you have to remember that the story of Christ was ever evolving and wasn't even translated to English until the 15th or 16th century which leaves room for forgery and changing of history. Here's the similarities between some of those Gods in comparison to Jesus. Also, early Christian apologists admitted the similarities between Jesus and these Gods but their only explanation was that the Devil made up these stories and put them on Earth before Christ arrived to fool everybody into not believing in Jesus. Attis of Phyrgia -Attis was born on December 25th of the Virgin Nana -He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind -His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers -His priests were "enuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven" -he was both the Divine Son and the Father -On "Black Friday", he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth -After 3 days, Attis was resurrected on March 25th(as tradition held of Jesus) as the "Most High God" -He suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes The drama or passion of Attis took place in what was to become Galatia, and it was the followers of Attis to whom Paul adressed his Epistle to the Galatians at 3:1: "O, foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" Since the Galatians presumably were not in Jerusalem when Christ was purportedly crucified, we may sensibly ask just who this was "publicly portrayed as crucified" before their eyes? This "portrayal certainly suggests the recurring passion of the cult of Attis.Attis was popular not only in Phrygia/Galatia but also in Rome. So similar was the Attis myth to the Christian story that the Christians were forced to resort to their specious argument that the devil had created the Attis cult first to fool Christians. Buddha -born on December 25th of the Virgin Maya, and his birth was attended by a "star of announcement", wise men, and angels singing heavenly songs -at his birth he was pronounced ruler of the world and presented with "costly jewels and precious substances" -His life was threatened by a King "who was advised to destroy the child, as he was liable to overthrow him" -He taught in the temple at age 12 -He crushed a serpent's head(as was traditionally said of Jesus) and was tempted by Mara , the "Evil One", while fasting -Buddha was baptized in water, with the "Spirit of God" or "Holy Ghost" present -He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes", and walked on water -abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the world", and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness" -In some traditions he died on a cross -he was resurrected, as his coverings were unrolled from his body and his tomb was opened by supernatural powers - He was called "Lord, Master, Light of the world, Holy one, Redeemer of All, Eternal One, Sin bearer, Good Shepherd, Carpenter, and Alpha and Omega" -He came to fulfill, not destroy the law -He is to return "in the latter days" to restore order and to judge the dead Sam, many Buddhist monks traveled to Egypt, Greece, and Asia Minor to spread their doctrines and their influence on Christianity is undeniable, and a bigger influence than both of them would like to admit. The 2 biggest influences though are the stories of Krishna and Horus/Osiris. I'll post them later. I just found the reference to Mexico, so here's how it ties in. Pheonicians knew about this land far before European contact in this area, therefore it's not surprising that stories of this new world were found in the library at Alexandria. The similarities to Christianity, in particular Catholicism, are as follows: -The Mexicans revered the cross and baptized their children in a ritual of regeneration and rebirth long before Christian contact. -IN one of the few existing Codices is an image of the Mexican savior bending under the weight of a burdensome cross, in exactly the same manner in which Jesus was depicted -The Mexican crucifix depicted a man with nail holes in feet and hands, the Mexican Christ and redeemer who died for man's sins. -Furthermore, the Mexicans had monastaries and nunneries, and called their high priests 'Papes' When Cortez conquered Mexico he was so alarmed at the similarities between their religious practices and Catholicism that he was angered, declared it was the work of the devil, and proceeded to destroy books,temples, and artifacts that pertained to the Mexican's religion. Forgive me for such a long rant - ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 18, 2001).]
Well, a lot of different viewpoints have been brought forth, and I am glad that we are all pondering this question, even if nobody changes their mind. First off, I am a strong believer in Jesus Christ, but I am not religious at all. Religion is a set of beliefs and rules/regulations that a person has to follow in order to excel. I don't follow any rules or regulations at all. So, let me explain first by presenting Christianity in its most simplistic form: 1. There is one God who is perfect and holy. 2. Because of the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, all men are born into this world as sinners. 3. Sin separates us (our eternal spirit/soul) from God, so, all men are born into this world separated from God. 4. On the day of Judgement that God has appointed, if a man has even one small sin in his life, God, because He is a just God, is required to give us the penalty for sin, that being eternal separation from God (Hell). 5. God desires that all men come into a relationship with Him, not being eternally separated. 6. God came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. Christ lived a perfect life and was sacrificed on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later, thus conquering death and sin. 7. A man can have a relationship with Jesus Christ and go to heaven if he believes that Jesus Christ's death and resurrection pay the penalty for a his sin. Getting to Heaven is a free gift of grace from God. Man chooses either to accept it or reject it. It is not based upon the good works that a man does while on earth. A man gets into Heaven by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Now how is it that I am a strong Christian and don't follow rules or regulations? I desire to glorify God in all that I do; the things that I do are not "have to's" (or rules) but rather "want to's" (or my desire). That desire is given to all Christians immediately upon believing in Jesus Christ. Again, a Christian has a choice whether to indulge this God given desire, or to go back to indulging his old desires. Some Christians do not even try to indulge their Godly desire, and they continue to try to fill themselves with their old desires (sinning). These people will still go to Heaven because they accepted Christ, but they will not fully enjoy their lives on earth or enjoy Heaven as much as those who live their lives to glorify God. For all Christians who choose to satisfy the Godly desire, it is a constant struggle not to easily fall back into trying to satisfy themselves with old desires. This is a battle for Christians their whole life while on earth. Let me give an illustration here. Joe Schmo wants to know about the Houston Rockets. Who are these guys? While in Houston, Joe talks to a guy that watches the Rockets on tv every now and again and maybe keeps up with where they are in the standings by reading the paper. Joe asks him, "Are you a Rockets' Fan? What's the team like?" The man replies in the affirmative in an unemotional manner and is able to rattle off the names of Olajuwon, Francis, and another guy whose name starts with an 'M' he thinks. Joe walks away thinking, "Man, this guy is a Rockets' fan? He doesn't know much about his team." Joe also notices as the man is walking away that he was wearing a Boston Celtics shirt. What would you suggest that Joe do? Give up trying to find out about the Houston Rockets? Hopefully Joe would run into one of us so that he could get a clearer picture of just exactly who the Houston Rockets are. Not only that, but Joe would get to see the enthusiasm with which we would share all of our 'insider' info with him. My point is this, if you only dabble at the fringes of Christianity, you will encounter Christians whose lives do not adequately provide others with a clear picture of who Christ is, how He has given them life, and how He continually satisfies them. I know this won't change your mind, but I do pray that God would bring someone into each of your lives who would clearly present to you a picture of Christ in the way that they live their life. Steve has made mistakes in his life and constantly struggles with sin as all Christians do. And as was mentioned before, Steve may not be a good witness of Christ to Vancouver. I do not know if Steve truly seeks to try to live in a Godly manner, but by his comments on this tv program, he has put himself in the spotlight to be scrutinized by people looking to find out exactly who Jesus Christ is, and it is important that he be aware that the manner in which he lives his life is either drawing people towards Christ or pushing them away. That's a huge responsibility, but also an exciting one. I share all this with you simply because I desire that everyone be clearly presented with what Christianity is. The decision is yours to make, not mine to make for you. If you have any questions or comments to make, I'd love to hear from you: rocketfan@tamu.edu ------------------ It's Clutch's City and we're all just living in it...
I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I've studied religion, spirituality and world history my entire life. Many have made really good points, particularly Tacoma Park Legend and Today. I am also one of those Christians who looks askance at most religion and most organizations which purport to be Christian. While there are many spiritual leaders throughout the ages, in my opinion, none comes close to the story of Jesus. Because I have a major dose of science in my approach to life, I find great comfort in the biblical codes and some of the things they seem to indicate. (Try Bible Code Digest). Like others, I do not seek to change the minds of others, merely to state my position. There are a couple of things I would like to mention which are relevant to this discussion. First, I find the adherance to ritual and the building of multi-million dollar churches to be anathema to everything Jesus taught. Second, while I am pleased that some players make God a part of their lives, I do not for one minute believe God will ever give a rat's a$$ who wins an NBA game. And I would never pray for such a thing, because that would just be wrong. Pray to be your best and do your best. In closing, while I try to do the right thing, I recognize that every day I come up short. But just like I love my sons no matter what, I have to believe that God loves us no matter what, for how much better must his love be for us than my love is for my sons? ------------------
Here's a poem I wrote about ten years ago which seems strangely relevant to this thread. YEAR'S END New Years always makes me ponder the truth about the great out yonder. God. Jehovah. Perhaps the First Cause. Who is in charge, and what are his laws? Some say it was Jesus who was sent here to lead us. Some follow the Buddha, some Allah, some Judah. I've studied one, I've studied them all. I've followed their lessons spring, summer and fall. But by the year's end I find myself thinkin' much, much, much more like Henry L. Mencken. ------------------
Sooo... what else did Francis have to say? Wups. I'm off-topic. Hehe. ------------------ "I had mine chewed off by a boss one time." -- Behad leaves us wondering if he gets hazard pay...
TPL, Look closer to home as well. Look at spiritual ideals in the Hellenistic age, look to the Roman "mystery cults." Look to the Cult of Bacchus which introduced the wine as blood/bread as body concept. Look to the Stoics and their development of the love your enemy/turn the other cheek philosphy. Look to Paul who presents a completely different Jesus than that of the gospels. Look to late 2nd century Christian apologists wh said it was absurd for pagans to claim that Christianity is based on a man who was crucified and then rose from the dead. Look to the Jewish practive of midrash at the time and see how it might relate. Look to the concept of the intermediary son (in the 1st century). Look to the concept of Wisdom (female) pre-christianity. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
