Francis in the same class as the Big O, Magic & Grant Hill

There is reason why Hill made all those all NBA teams. Who is another small forward who gave him competition. The only other one is Scottie Pippen.

 

yeah that's what i thought.

3rd place in MVP voting is pretty irrefutable. i don't see steve having even gotten a whiff at the top 10.

 

Link

It doesn't matter if the player is a point guard or a shooting guard - in all-NBA team voting, all that matters is that he's a guard.

 

grant hill was really good. the only question in my mind is that if he would have been as good as KG if he didn't get injured.

 

The guy Steve reminds me of, stats wise, is Fat Lever. Take alook at Lever's numbers some time, you wanna see an all around point guard

 

I would rather have Grant Hill over everyone of those players except Dream, Jordan, and Robinson during the 1997.

You definitely never saw Grant Hill play.

 

I hate Duke, but if Hill doesn't get hurt, he might go down as the all around best sf ever.

 

If Steve had not suffered his Meningereine disease he was on pace to be one of the better gaurds out there. If Zydrunas Iglauskus had never got injured he would have been a top 5 Center every year. If Alonzo Mourning had not had a kidney disease, we would be talking about how Yao is the 3rd best Center in the league not 2nd. If Hakeem had not lost his knees, we would be currently playing for our 8th NBA championship....

The Key word in all of these is IF. given the stuff that has happened, I take Francis over Hill ANY DAY.... Its about the Future guys, not the past...

 

You mean the migraine damaged Steve's basketball IQ?

 

I don;t think your point is all that relevant. We're not talking about whether or not you'd trade Steve for Hill now, but about how good he was in his prime. The 'if' stuff is a way of describing his quality to people who never saw him play.

And re: Steve over Hill, you mean as is, or as was? Cause if you mean Stve no headaches > Hill no injury, I gotta wonder if you ever saw Hill play.


And you think the headache thing really changed Steve's career path?

 

so he was a smart player with a high BBall IQ before the Meningereine disease, i forgot

 

Grant Hill's a forward.

 

I watch just as much basketball as everyone else, Hill has always been overhyped. He's a very good all-around player, but he is in the same tier as Steve, he was never a franchise player.

 

15,5,5 is not a sensible way to gauge the greatness of point guards. We need pgs to make assists, not to grab rebounds. There is plenty of pgs who does a lot more than 15 pts and 5 assists and grabs less boards. That doesn't mean they are worse than Francis. Give me a point guard that average 16 pts, 2 rebounds and 6 assists and I take that over 15,5,5 any day.

I guess Isiah, Stockton, Jordan, Dream and Bird et al aren't in the same class of Francis if that's the case.

It's like putting Mutombo and Mark Eaton in the same class of Dream by drawing conclusions from their rebounding and blocks, which still makes more sense than emphasizing rebounds at the pg position for centers are measured by rebounds.

 

In other words folks, if Francis does something good, it must not really be good, because us Rocket fans hate him.

Dude, seriously, those stats put him in a rare category, no matter what you want out of your point guard. I've never seen a group of fans try to knock a player of their favorite team accomplishments as much as you guys try to knock Francis's.

 

Name another player who finished 3rd in MVP voting, and was 1st or 2nd team all-NBA for 5 years who wasn't a franchise player. He also lead the league in triple doubles 3 straight years.


Hill was better, period. I admire your dedication, pg, but this is going too far.

 

I mean as is... that is why i said, GIVEN THE STUFF THAT HAS HAPPENED, I take Steve...



and I do think the disease has affected him. He has changed his diet, his workout, he gets headaches when it gets too loud, Sure all those things affect a person. A lot. I dont think it has affected the difference between a hall of fame and scrub career, but it has made some difference in his game.

 

Do you not agree that their stats and team wins are not similar through their first five seasons.

I really don't care about the accolades because like I wrote earlier, as far as all-NBA he had no competition at small forward. Name five really good small forwards from his prime

Steve has Kidd, Marbury, Nash, Bibby, and before this year Payton.

And the NBA wanted to make the guy the next Jordan. They tried their best to make him their poster child, therefore the media attention but on court results are not that different from Francis's. It's just not and that's all that really matters.

 

Francis' grabbing boards is appreciated, but not to the extent of making a big deal out of it.

How about just answer this, do you want a pg who gives you 15 pts, 4 rebounds and 6 assists or a pg who averages 15 pts, 5 rebounds and 5 assists? Don't know about you, but IMO an assist is generally more important than a rebound, especially at the pg spot.

 

Lack of competition at the 3 don't explain the MVP thing.

But if we're talking stats, here's the difference in a nutshell:


fg% :
Hill's 1st 5 seasons: .477, .462, .496, .452, .479
Steve's 1st 5 : .445, .451, .417, .435, .403

Hill had more rebounds, more assists, scored more points, and was much more efficient. And he didn't dominate the ball as muc getting it done.

I can't believe I'm spending this much time defending a freaking Blue Devil.

Honestly, how much did you see him play?