You misunderstood my statement....I'll rephrase...."selfish players that LEAD their team to titles..." Not riding the coattails of another player. But just for the fun of it, I'll play along... Scottie Pippen - Jordan lead team; zero rings w/out Jordan. Kobe Bryant - Kobe was selfish before Phil Jackson tamed his playing style. Place him under Shaq. Problem solved. Vernon Maxwell - Hakeem lead team; left the league after Drexler replaced him. Bill Lambier - Dirty. Not selfish. Isiah was the leader. He knew it. Danny Ainge - Good role player. Not a leader. Zero rings after the Bird era. As far as conference titles. I hope that's not our ultimate goal. It should also be noted that Francis has a MAX-CONTRACT. What? Does that mean that he's a role player too? Hmmmm, maybe he's our MAX-CONTRACT player, but he's the 2nd best player on our team? Makes you wonder why the Rox paid him 85 Mil? I can't believe that you are actually suggesting that a selfish type player, that shoots under 40%, has a turnover rate of 3.7 pg, and wants to play "his way" will ever win a championship (unless he changes). It wishful thinking. I mean, hell...at least Warren Sapp, Keyshawn Johnson, Derek Jeter were excellent at their positions. Like I've said before. Talk the talk, walk the walk (Francis). P.S. I also think you are confusing "selfish" with "cocky." Some of the cocky players above could actually back up wthat they were bragging about.
I love how this thread *appeared* to be blaming both Francis AND Van Gundy, but then jopatmc spends the majority of the time railing on Van Gundy and then *strategically* places a "Francis needs to become more mature."
Francis' immaturity is already obvious and well documented. No point in having another big discussion about it. It is a known fact. He is stupid for not getting as close to Van Gundy and being the leader he is supposed to be for this team. All the comparisons to A.I. fit and make me sick. I don't think he will win until he takes on a Tim Duncan style professionalism in dealing with his coach and other teammates. I'm tired of his act. Great talent..........but mostly wasted. I didn't feel it was necessary to harp on Francis' defeciencies. But I was attempting to bring out what I see as Van Gundy's deficiencies. Sorry if you think I am pro Steve and anti Van Gundy. I am neither. I believe Steve can be one of the top 4 players in this league. I believe that Van Gundy can be one of the top 4 coaches in this league. I believe that the combination of Van Gundy's coaching skills combined with the talents of Steve and Yao can produce championships if they work right. Right now, neither player or coach is in the top 4. Everything I have said about Van Gundy is about how he should deal with the TEAM, not with Stevie. And a team with superstar talent on it has to be handled a little different than a team with non-superstar talent on it. Look at the champions of the NBA and their coaches. Popovich-Yes, he has a system. Yes, the players fit the system. Yes , the players believe in his system. Yes, his superstar backs the coach. And Pop has created enough team comraderie and loyalty that even though one of their players was and is constantly rumored to be traded for Jason Kidd, that player still plays for Pop and works within the system. That is because of Pop. If that player (Tony) didn't like Pop, it would never work. Same thing in L.A. Despite all the negativitism between Shaq and Kobe, the coach got the best out of them. They didn't win it last year, Shaq was hurt and out of shape. But they were at that level and they did win it 3 in a row. All the while Shaq and Kobe are bickering like little kids at one another and occasionally at the coach. But the coach held it together. He didn't trade Shaq or Kobe to solve the problem. He fixed the problem every time one came up between the three. That 's why he is one of the league's top coaches. He knows how to get into a player's head. In my opinion, that is why Van Gundy doesn't care for him. Because Van Gundy lacks those people skills. Van Gundy only knows how to deal with people from a position of absolute power as the big boss. It doesn't work in corporate America, and it doesn't work in the NBA. I will repeat, people want to be appreciated for their work. The salary they make does not bring them that ultimate satisifaction. It doesn't matter whether they make $15,000 a year or $10 million a year. Both will derive satisifaction from knowing that their boss appreciates their efforts. Yeah, they should both do their job and not complain. Or they should find another occupation if they don't like it. But they will be better employees and more productive if they know that their efforts are appreciated. Once again, my comments about Van Gundy were in reference to how he deals with the TEAM, not with just Stevie.
Yes, he definitely does. And Van Gundy needs to adjust or else we will be stuck with mediocre, overachieving teams that have very little chance of winning it all because better talent doesn't want to play for a coach that doesn't appreciate their talents and efforts and always puts the blame on the players for the team's problems.
I really don't think that JVG has a problem with Mobley, or MoT and Cato, or JJ... Just our primmadona....Francis. Now, If you are saying that JVG should learn how to respect players. I think he does. The ones that lead by example within their roles. But Francis *thinks* he deserves more than he is giving. I think that's where the conflict is. Lets put this in perspective...what we are talking about here are professional disagreements. Not behind the scenes fist-fights. So, there's no extremes on either side in terms of "maturity." But that still leads us back to what Francis demands -- for JVG to kiss his ass just because he has a MAX-CONTRACT, not because he deserves it, or leads by example. So, more change has to occur on Francis's side, than JVG. What I'm saying is that Francis thinks that the "title" alone gives him a sense of "royalty" or "entitlement" on this team. And he expects JVG to respect that "title." The title? "The Franchise." Reminds me of that executive that gets the Vice President job without deserving it, and then goes around expecting people to bow down just based on the Vice President title. Not because the employes respect that person.
If indeed Van Gundy was trying to get his team focuesed because of a 3 game losing streak, then he should have left town between their home games. It's a ridiculous argument that Van Gundy left Sunday afternoon to get the team better prepared for Phoenix. If they have to have the extra 6 hours or whatever it would have been to stay and go to the Super Bowl event, then he hasn't got them prepared right to begin with. And it obviously didn't help, because they got toasted by Phoenix and the players came out and said that it wasn't Steve's fault that they lost to Phoenix. The players said that they had enough talent and the system to beat Phoenix handily without Steve. That just tells me that Van Gundy is as much out of sync with his team as Steve is out of sync with Van Gundy.
I agree with that. But if Steve does make all the changes he needs to make, I don't think we will win a championship until Van Gundy respects his players a little more. Van Gundy reminds me of the executive who becomes President........and maybe he does deserve it. But it goes to his head, and he starts going around expecting everybody to bow down to him because of his title, not because they respect him as a person.
Sorry, but I disagree. JVG has the resume. He has been through the play-offs, and to a Finals. Francis has not. One "title" is earned. The other "title" is not.
The original post was fairly well put together and not deserving of my rant. But the part about "once in a lifetime opportunity" and "going as a team", really set me off. Going as a team first. Should the hospitals shut down, the police all go together, etc, etc. Hey why don't they just lock the doors and let the ticked takers go in. We all wanted to go. AS to once in a lifetime, absolutely not. These guys are young millionaires. They can go any time they want to after their career. They will have time to go, they can afford to go, and most likely they will be given free tickets if they do go. Being a pro basketball player is more than just cashing pay checks, serving drug suspensions, crying about the establishment, and fathering children across the nation. At some point they have to actually play the game. Sorry if it conflicts with their personal schedule. Working for a living is not only a b****, but yes, it does cramp your lifestyle. Do you know how much money Steve makes. I think he signed an $80,000,000.00 contract. If you make a not to shabby $100,000 per year, you would have to work 800 years to get what he gets in seven. 800 years. Steve - get off your ass, say goodby to the superbowl (or whatever pea is under you matress) pick up your lunchbox and get to work. The real world is getting sick and tired of your cry baby attitude. And as long as I have frothed from players in general to Steve in particular, learn how to make free throw under pressure. By the way, it is a b**** being a grumpy old man so early in life.
David, Van Gundy overachieved with an undertalented team. Yes, he made it to the finals. He didn't win it. Why? Not enough talent. Can he handle talent? That question has not been answered yet. All he had was an over the hill , very average Ewing on it. They were not talented. They were overachievers. Properly coached and managed talent is what wins in this league. We have 2 superstar talents and 1 star talent on this team surrounded by role players along with one good coach who has the potential to be a great coach. The superstar talent has to mature and the good coach has to adjust to become a great coach. It will take both sides making changes in the way that they do things for this team to ever win anything. Van Gundy has earned his title of coach. Francis has earned his title of superstar player. They will both have to change along with the rest of the players for this team to earn the title of Champions. Neither has earned the ultimate title.
You're ignoring the fact that the original plan was to leave around 5pm on Sunday. JVG changed the flight time to earlier in the day so that the team could get situated in the hotel and watch the game together.....as a team. As a coach, you want to avoid excessive travel as much as possible. Often in back-to-back situations, teams travel late at night or the next day before the second game which can take it's toll on the players. In a sense taking a late, after the Super Bowl flight or Monday morning flight would have created a back-to-back travel situation that was not necessary. I applaud JVG for altering the travel itinerary so that they could get the trip out of the way and so the team could relax together. BS. It was a once every 15-20 year opportunity for the City of Houston. Guys in Steve's situation(rich and famous) will have plenty of chances to attend many Super Bowls in the future. They may not be in Houston, but that is trivial. See my first post above.
Francis is a "superstar?" Says who? You give JVG the title "coach." But Francis the title of "superstar." Why? Popularity? What about play on the court? Actual work. Again, who has more on their resume? I'm not talking about "talent" in terms of T-Mac. I'm talking about the lack of talent that Francis has. In your eyes Francis is pure talent. I see many holes in his game. You do not. Francis != T-Mac, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett T-Mac, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett = Superstars Francis wants the same respect as T-Mac, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett. Not going to happen. One actually has to do the work, to get the respect.
It is a once in a lifetime for most of these players to be able to attend a Super Bowl and get the attention of being players for the professional team in the host city. I'm not talking about the Francis' and Mings. Once again, my remarks are in regards to the entire team. I'm talking about Pike, and Nachbar, and Griffin. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity for them. Van Gundy and the Rockets could have done themself a service by all appearing at the Super Bowl. Do you think Mark Cuban would have had the Mavs at the Super Bowl if the game were in Dallas? What if it were in LA? Would the Lakers have been at the game? I bet they would have. The publicity and attention they would receive would have been good for the organization as a whole, not to mention the players. I'm just sighting one example of the problem here. I've heard it over and over in Van Gundy's news conferences following the game. He might as well come out and say after every loss...."Players fault, players fault" and even after the wins, he's ranting about something. I don't see enough positive reinforcement. In fact, I hardly see any. I just don't think he is a championship coach at this point just like I don't think that Steve is a championship player at this point. Steve missing the flight to Phoenix is just one example of his immaturity. His on court antics can be sighted over and over as examples of his immaturity. Van Gundy's decision making and the way he treats his players, well, there are numerous examples, not just Super Bowl week. I brought up the Super Bowl as an example. We could talk about the way he has handled Ming, the way he has handled MoT, the way he has handled Pike, the way he has handled Boki, not to mention the way he has handled Steve and Cat. Do you want another one? Here you go. A player like Pike should not be in the doghouse. The guy can't defend well. Van Gundy knew that when we signed him. He shouldn't be in the doghouse with Van Gundy. He has never failed to hustle on the court. He just doesn't have good defensive skills. Van Gundy doesn't put Cato in the doghouse because he has zero offensive skills and bogs down the offense, because Van Gundy likes his D. But Cato takes away as much offense on this team as Pike takes away defense. There's another example for you to think about. I don't think he's handled Pike right. By the way, I'm not a Pike fan necessarily, except when he's hitting the 3. I'm just sighting another example on how he handles players. Pike was supposed to be a big part of what the Rockets were doing. Yeah, he hasn't shot well. How many players in this league can shoot well when they are given 4 minutes on the floor and they are yanked as soon as they miss 2 shots? Same thing with Boki. There is not opportunity being given for Boki to grown into the kind of player he can be. Because he can't come off the bench and get 2 steals and block a shot, he sits, and rots. Our best starting lineup in the preseason was with Boki at the 3. He has been given almost no opportunity to play, because he doesn't D up the way Van Gundy wants him to. And I don't think Van Gundy cares. Everybody griped about Rudy T and developing players. I don't see Van Gundy developing anybody. All I see from him is a tendacy to trade away people for grizzled veterans that he doesn't have to develop. I have seen nothing but hustle from most of our bench players. Van Gundy gives them zero credit. Here's another example while I'm at it. MoT has been playing his you know what off. He has turned into an offensive juggernaut, a scoring machine, who is adept at reading the defense and making good decisions with the ball. Van Gundy never acknowledges that. All he does is gripe about lack of rebounding, lack of defensive intensity, ad nauseum. I think he should be praising MoT's work on offense to the media and in practice he should be working on MoT's defensive and rebounding while letting MoT know he is doing the right thing on the offensive side of the ball. That would be more balanced. Want another example? How about Cat? The guy has been working his tail off on both ends of the floor? Dude takes video home and watches it to get better. Don't tell me he hasn't done everything he knows to do to work with Van Gundy and make it happen. He's worked his tail off for this coach. Where's the love from Van Gundy? I dont' see it. Here's another example: Ming. It has taken Van Gundy half a season to adapt his offense to let Ming play up high when he is being triple teamed in the post. I've heard him do nothing but complain about Mings weaknesses to the media. Here again, no positive reinforcement. He keeps trying to make Ming the next Charles Oakley which Ming is NEVER going to become. Is Van Gundy adapting? If he is, it has taken him almost 50 games to do it. And I still don't see him showing any respect for Ming's skills. How about this one: JJ. Coach's pet. That is ridiculous. Even the players know he is the coach's pet. If TEAM is not to have a superstar player which is a prima donna (and TEAM shouldn't), then coach doesn't need to have one player who is coach's pet. JJ is a very good player, who works extremely hard on his game. I give him his props. This is not about JJ. It is about Van Gundy's handling of the players. In my opinion, JJ has not worked any harder at his game than Cat or some of the other players have worked at theirs. For him to be singled out as coach's pet does not help the concept of "TEAM". When you send off signals that one player is your pet, you have let the rest of the team know that their efforts aren't measuring up, that they are all inferior. And included in that group are players that are doing everything that they know how to do to meet the coach's expectations. It is not fair to the rest of the players that are hustling for one player to be thought of as hustling more than they. In fact is is discouraging. If there is a player that is not working hard, that should be handled privately between the coach and that player who is not working hard enough. The whole team, the media, and all the fans shouldn't know that one player is the coach's favorite because he does things the coach's way better than everybody else. Players need to know that they are appreciated for the things that they are doing well. That's my complaint about Van Gundy. He runs roughshod over ALL the players, save his pet, who apparently can do no wrong. Steve has got to grow up. I'm tired of the busted 1 on 3 fastbreaks, the constant whining to the refs, the dribble down the clock garbage, the failure to throw the ball to the post, the prima donna attitude. I'm also tired of the constant negativism from the coach. He needs a small dose of Tomjanovich-Lasorda antobiotic.
Very interesting post, jopatmc. It definitely made me think a lot more than the unqualified JVG hate coming from the likes of Rocket Rich NYC and ricerocket (and yesterday also IROC it).
The resumes of Van Gundy as coach and Steve as player are about on the same level at this point. If you are gonna compare Francis to TMac, Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett, then you have to compare Van Gundy to Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, and Flip Saunders. I'd say that Van Gundy is better than Doc, about even with Flip and inferior to Phil Jackson, and Greg Popovich at this point. I'd say that Francis is about even with T-Mac, and inferior to Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett at this point. He is a superstar just as much as Van Gundy is a top coach. Granted an underperforming superstar just like TMac but a superstar never the less. He has all world talent and can single handedly change the face of the game. Van Gundy is a very good coach who is coaching an underperforming superstar player. Neither are champions and neither has reached championship level coaching or playing.
