I asked you, name a great PF/C combo that did not work out, especially in their prime. Volume does not explain "the mold" as in what teams you'd choose to have if you had full choice. Teams simply do not have the opportunity to land two studly big men on the same team very often...usually, the first one takes you out of the lottery, and you never have a chance at landing a second one, and no one will trade a stud big man for a guard, generally. PGs go later in the draft, so numbers-wise, you can generally get a great guard later in the draft than a great big man. Look at it this way, 2 teams in the last 20 years had back-to-back #1 picks with HOF PF/C on the board, and HOF-quality guards. Given the choice, both teams took the PF/C combos, leaving Jordan and Hardaway on the board. Given the choice, it is a no brainer, and everyone agrees with those picks by Houston and Orlando. Now, Orlando ended up trading Webber for Hardaway and 3 #1s, but I'd say trading Webber for Penny and 3 #1s is a no brainer as well. That trade ruined Golden State. That trade ended up being, Webber for Penny, Horace Grant, Mike Miller and Keon Clark (I think, Keon).
I understand the volume of stud big man combos is a lot weaker than that of a good guard/big man one, but you can't say that Sampson/dream did more than the 3 guard/big man combos you listed, as all 3 made at least one NBA final. You picked poor combos to use in your example if you wanted to show busts out of guard/big man combos. As far as O Neal goes, I don't think he is better than Francis and his game is finesse, just like Yao. If I brought in a good pf alongside Yao it would be brand, no question. Jermaine O' Neal's game strikes me as one that would not be nearly as effective out west with his size, and would be a very poor complement to Yao. I'm not saying the concept can't work, but Jermaine O Neal just isn't as good as you are making him out to be is my contention, and especially doesn't mesh with a finesse center like Yao.
heyp- The draft/free agency thing was in reference to O'Neal. I suppose they could still trade Darko, and Dumars already looked the media in the face and lied about the Carlisle thing (before firing), but they've made it out to seem like Darko's their guy. Based on the reports I've seen on his size, athleticism, skills, and the fact he's 17...wow. Re: Sterling. I don't think anyone has any idea what he's going to do. heypartner mentione he made the move for Brand, which verse countered pointing out Brand was on a rookie contract. Cancel each other out? Perhaps. Sterling's been doing interesting things. It started when he accepted the Orlando dump to get picks and Maggette. Then the Brand deal- while Brand was on a rookie contract, if Sterling's plan was to let him go, Chandler (#2 pick) would still have had more years to play on rookie scale. In the same vain, Sterling traded a popular Darius Miles with multi years left for Andre Miller going into a free agency year. I think if the Clippers had blown up like many predicted, perhaps they're actually kept intact. No question some of these guys are gone, it's just a matter if they walk, or Sterling greases their way out the door with sign and trades. verse- On the sign and trade thing with Sterling. If my memory is good, Derek Anderson was actually believed to be damaged goods at the time. He even took in Johnny Newman as a throw-in, and this was for Lamond freakin' Murray. The NBA still has minimum salary requirements, which the Clips have actually been close toa couple of times. I would think, I'd at least send out feelers to Sterling on what he thinks of Glen Rice (cap filler), Eddie Griffin (there's your young talent), and possibly more of those picks he loves. Maybe that'll get you Dre Miller or Odom. Like you said, he wants to sell tickets and his botto line is money- I wonder if we can give him preseason games with Yao like we're doing for NY's compensation? Hell, he may even be interested in Moochie Norris, or more likely his afro. On O'Neal, I think the guy has the ability to be a stud. He's got a load of talent, and the heart to back it. As far as him not succeeding in the West, the numbers don't bear that out- he averaged 22.8 points and 10.1 rebounds on 49.0% FG with 2.5 blocks per game. Versus his season numbers, his points are up 2.0 per game, rebounds down by 0.2, FG% up by 0.6% and blocks up by about 0.2 a game. His numbers were actually a little bit BETTER when playing western conference teams. It seems people are remembering the skinny teen in Portland barely getting off the bench, not the guy who just put up 21-10 for the Pacers. verse, I'm enjoying this breakdown. Back to Duncan, Duncan in the high post long term may happen. Was it me, or was his passing in the Finals better than it's ever been? I still don't think he's a Vlade/Sabonis, or even Garnett/Webber type in that regard though. He's still much better when he's closer to the bucket, and Brand is pretty much only functional in that area. Malik Rose added (or had) a 17 footer to his arsenal to open things up. Jermaine O'Neal can roam around the free thow line area and spot up for the David Robinson like jumper or cut all the way. I just think Brand would be seriously misused in that role. The Spurs still prefer Duncan guarding centers as little as possible and vice versa (perhaps because centers who are actually TD's size can force Duncan out towards a high post more than PFs can). Brand forces Duncan to center, and forces Duncan to be guarded by centers. IMO, Jermaine O'Neal forces moreof a "pick your poison" scenario for San Antonio- if the PF is guarding him, he's going to light the guy up, probably even more when his fellow "tower" is Duncan instead of Brad Miller.
pasox...defense is the key, not your soft ass Odom...4/5s create the best defense. Do you see Duncan saying he wants Odom? No...Duncan came straight out and said he wants Brand or O'Neal, pretty much. I think Duncan knows a whittle bit about what works. Also, who did Jerry West pick to go with Gasol/Swift?, rather than trade down for a SG or sumpin, like he ended up doing for Miller...and didn't they admit to screwing up not taking Amare. We didn't hear West say that Gasol and Amare would conflict with each other, did we? West wanted a two big man combo, and had to settle for Mike Miller. And don't say JWill was there to make it work, because this thread is about Tinsley coming here with O'Neal. Here's another example of how 4s and 5s fit well, and people always pick them if they can. Charlotte was going nowhere with Tripucka, Rex Chapman and Dell Curry, so they had the #1 and #2 in successive seasons. They took a PF/C combo...Grandmama and Mourning ... and totally turned over their guards to match them. They went from expansion team to 50 games before free agency split them up....and what did Pat Riley do, he traded Rice for Mourning and tried to immediately land Juwan Howard, but failed. Riley went for a PF/C combo, too, to try to match what he built at New York with Ewing and all those PFs. given the choice...smart money (Duncan, Riley, West) goes for PF/C combos....because defense wins.
Just one correction. I agree with your points, but actually I believe Paul Pierce does sell the most amouint of jersey in the league. Carry on.
NIKEstrad, I've seen the reports too. But do you think Larry Brown signed with Detroit to coach a 17yr old? Big men take awhile to develop, and Brown wants to win now. I didn't call them busts. I was trying to compare studs to studs. You said who won titles, and I said the percentage is in favor of the stud PF/C combos over the stud guard/big man combos, and that's why people pick them given the choice. And you saying Boston's frontline proves you right is just not right. Boston's frontline proves that, given the choice, Red Auerbach went for a HOF frontline. Sampson/Hakeem worked almost instantly. and the Shaq/Webber picks in successive years was the consensus for a reason, as well.
No, we have Yao and Cato as center. If Steve solves the problems that he doesn't play smart, he will be successfull with the help from Yao. Although he is short,he jumps higher than most of the players in the league. I think with Yao and Steve as our core player under JV, appropriately adjust our PF position, Rox will go far in the future.
Another correction: Duncan would rather the Spurs DON'T go after a big man. Also, the Spurs would not go after J O'Neal, since both him and Duncan hate playing Center. At this point, I think I'd much rather have Yao paired up with a second star at PF and a decent Guard, than a decent hard working PF and a star Guard. For example, which seems better: Yao Ming O'Neal Posey Mobley Tinsley or Yao Ming PJ Brown Posey Mobley Francis I think we'd always go with the first, right? I, for one, would. But can O'Neal co-exist with Yao? Yao will never demand more shots, so if O'Neal wants more, yao will just dish it out. Can we deal with this problem? Will it affect Yao's development? Maybe it's too early for Yao to face this? But those are probably risks worth being taken.
If the proposition was somehow summoned, I'm in the minority and say do it. To make it work though seeing Indy can take back 1/2 of francis contract (5mill), they would need another salary,Taylor (8mill) to make it work. If they wanted to throw in in tinsley, i would throw in Griffin for maybe a pick down the line. People who argue about the O'Neal/Ming frontcourt coexisting doesn't understand how much easier he would make it on Ming. The guy is 24 yrs old so signing him to 7 yrs would have him 31 when it expires. A chance to get rid of Taylor's contract , along with Rice's coming off after the season would only leave us with Norris and Cato's bad contracts. The thing is that O'Neal would have to force the issue period! I don't want to make any bones about it , but i do like Francis and think he's a talent, but to get a even more wonderful talent in O'Neal who is younger would be great. Even after being in the league for 7 yrs, O'Neal still as much if not more upside than Francis. He and Ming could allow the Rockets to use that psuedo zone and pretty much mimic what the Spurs did this yr with Robinson and Duncan. Mobley gives you that slasher like Manu and Posey resigned gives you another defensive player. In fact the 3 spot between Morris,Nachbar and Posey would be pretty good with Ming and O'Neal in the backside. Its not a matter of if you do it, its a matter of do O'Neal force the Pacers hand. If this couldn't be done, I would like to do a SAR,Glover and pick for Mobley,Taylor, and Griffin. Give Ming a consistent scoring and rebounder at the 4 spot and this team can take off. Its still going to be a battle every yr in the west though.
No way. Jermaine O'Neal is overrated, Tinsley can dish the ball, but cannot make a shot outside of 8 feet. It would basically be 2 for 1. How he made the National Team is still anybody's guess. We have our low-post presence, we don't need another ball hog. Eddie must be given time to develop. He still isn't old enough to drink yet. I think under JVG, he will be a very good PF.
Totally agree! BIG MEN RULE. Defense! Jermaine O'Neal: Big Man. Plays Defense. Steve Francis: Small. Does not play defense well.. We would still have Cuttino Mobley and James Posey. And we would get rid of all the big contracts. Mobley, Taylor, and Griffin for SAR, Glover and a pick would be nice too.
Yao is not going to demand more shots!!! He is very unselfish and is a team player. He is like David Robinson. Jermaine O'Neal is like Tim Duncan..just not as good. Yao is taller than Robinson...Jermaine O'Neal and Yao Ming would be one of the best frontcourts in the NBA. It won't affect his development! It will benefit Yao! Yao won't be as tired....he knows he has a big man next to him who can rebound and block shots and doesn't need help and can hold his own ground. That would be great... Francis...is great...but if this trade was offered, the Rockets would have to do it!
This fantasy thread sure has a long life! 1) I don't think the Rockets can trade Steve with his contract and all. 2) If u trade Steve, u trade him for a 1st tier star (in a package if needed), KG, TMac, Duncan. You don't trade him for a second tier star like J. O'Neal. 3) Teams that are 1 dimensional are easy to stop. Even the Spurs. They are predictable most of the time. It's Duncan and kick-out. The Suns almost had them because they know how to defend that. Other teams were close too if they could score just a bit more. Winning like the Spurs is OK but other teams did/ do not fear them. They all thought they had a chance. Could they say the same thing about the Lakers? The Lakers were formidable when both Kobe/ Shaq were on. You can stop one but not both. When they beat you, you are beaten. They are not the only team. The Kings looked great with Webber cause they can hit you from all angles. The same is true with the Mavs when their whole team are on. Trading Steve for O'neal will reduce the Rockets to a 1 dimensional inside game. No or almost none creativity from the outside. O'Neal might be a good compliment to Yao but Steve is even a better fit. Yao and Steve's tandem will be a formidable force once they learn to play with each other.
He plays in the East. And if the finals didn't show you anything, it should have once again showed you the huge gap between the East & West. Aside from Wallace and Martin, who jumps out at you as a challenge to him? Look at all of the PF's (and C's for that matter) in the East....keep looking.....keep looking. Well, I suppose there is Eddy Curry. ...If he was in the West, he wouldn't have made the National Team. Let him try Duncan, Dirk, KG, Malone, C-Webb, Brand, Wallace, and Stoudemire for more than just two games a year. And to give the Franchise and Eddie for him? Are you sure that you are well-"versed" in NBA logic?
i'm sure you caught RP's post on the 3rd page about o'neal's #s versus the west. if not here it is... "On O'Neal, I think the guy has the ability to be a stud. He's got a load of talent, and the heart to back it. As far as him not succeeding in the West, the numbers don't bear that out- he averaged 22.8 points and 10.1 rebounds on 49.0% FG with 2.5 blocks per game. Versus his season numbers, his points are up 2.0 per game, rebounds down by 0.2, FG% up by 0.6% and blocks up by about 0.2 a game. His numbers were actually a little bit BETTER when playing western conference teams. It seems people are remembering the skinny teen in Portland barely getting off the bench, not the guy who just put up 21-10 for the Pacers. " now, you're saying that it's just 2 games a year, so that's not an accurate sample. well, what else is there to go by?!! lord knows, if his #s were down against the west, you'd have jumped all over it as a true sign that he can't compete in the west. whatever. you can't have it both ways. the reality of it is that o'neal has proven he can hold his own against the big boys. as for trading steve for him...oh yes. definitely. they are both what i call "borderline superstars" (aka: 2nd tier stars). and, all things being equal, i will ALWAYS go for the big man...especially when we're talking about playing in the western conference. that's not a 'stab' at steve francis. he's a wonderful talent. but having a 20/10 pf in the west is much more important than having a 20/6/6 guard that doesn't play a lick of defense. even without steve, we're still looking at a lineup with three legitimate 18-20 ppg scorers (yao ming, cuttino mobley, jermaine o'neal). our offense will be fine. more important, though, is the increase in our defense. o'neal/yao would be one of, if not the very best frontcourts, defensively and offensively, in the nba. and that is what can win titles...not 20/6/6 guards that don't play defense. sorry, but you shanked that one...
We don't need more offense..Eddie is a better shotblocker already than O'Neal, and can be a better rebounder than O'Neal. He is only 20. He won't get as many touches than Yao and is content to stay that way. O'Neal will want as many touches as he had in Indy. Sorry, but there is only ONE baskeball on the court at a time. Don't get me wrong, he is a quality player. But we cannot give up Steve just to bolster our frontline. Our team only lost 5 more games than the Pacers. If it wasn't for Steve, it woud have easily been more. If we give Eddie as much time as it took for O'Neal to develop and he becomes a quality player, then we gave up 2 for 1. Bad Idea. that means we get Tinsley for a former 7th overall pick. I cannot accept this. Gotta stab this before it becomes a re'verse'al of misfortune or even worse...a reality. Lets be patient....Have faith..I do.
to be honest with you, the most difficult part of this trade is not steve....it's griffin. i really, really like griffin. his age and ability coincides so well with yao ming. that said, jermaine o'neal is only 24 years old. pair him with a 22 year old yao ming and you have a serious, serious force for the next 10 years, at least. plus, jermaine is already at the point where i'd like for eddie griffin to get to. oh well, none of this speculative trade stuff is going to happen, but it is fun to talk about it...especially when the other person(s) have a sense of humor. in the end, it'll all come down to being patient with the team...and i can do that.
I thought I might bring this back to all those who say O'Neal didn't or couldn't perform in the West.
