HP, I am not saying that SA is favored, thats why I said "a team like SA". Again, IMO, it comes down to what he favors more, winning or a 7th year. To assume, or insinuate that JO will base his compensation desires of having that 7th year, regardless of whether the team that is courting him can pull of a S&T, seems a lil bit of a stretch to me. As you stated, young players aren't always interesting in the ring above all else, especially when you are only 25 or so. If he isn't, and instead wants his $$$, then there are more teams competing than just us.
hp- Detroit (Dumars) has declared Darko to be their pick. IMO, it'd take something really quirky for them to put him in a deal (especially to hold off on signing him for a month, and wait for free agency to see if a deal could get done). Then again, they did just fire a young coach who won COTY a year ago, and maximized a team with pretty average talent. verse- Interesting thought, but on the other hand, when San Antonio wants to make room for Duncan inside, Brand isn't a very effective midrange shooter (though, he's improved this a LOT), and doesn't have the quickness to be a cutter, either for a passer or to make the spectacular K-Mart like put back slam. O'Neal can cover most NBA centers not named Shaq (or maybe Yao) and actually has a pretty good touch on a 17 foot jumper. Overall, I think Jermaine O'Neal is a MUCH more versatile player than Brand, and O'Neal/Duncan as a combo is tougher than Brand/Duncan. I think Brand is probably a slightly better power forward (and makes a better fit next to someone like Yao), but O'Neal fits the Spurs better. Also in your scenario, if the Clippers were to match an offer for Brand...that's a disaster scenario for San Antonio, IMO. How happy would Jermaine O'Neal feel knowing he wasn't the guy San Antonio wanted? Enough to make him leave a playoff team with a good amount of talent (Bender, Harrington, Artest, Tinsley, B. Miller) in Indiana? Also, it's worth noting that Sterling DID in fact make a sign and trade once...the Lamond Murray deal, which landed him Derek Anderson and Johnny Newman, 2 players with 1 year left on their contracts. But, I think that the Clippers situationn are the enigma of the offseason. No one has any clue what Sterling is going to sign off on...will he keep ANY of these guys? If so, who? Will he be open to sign and trades? Many of the big names are the guys from his team- Odom, Brand, Andre Miller, Maggette, and Kandi. I suspect Kandi walks for sure, no S/T, but the rest of the guys are up in the air. If Sterling is willing to play ball with these guys, and either sign them, or be open to taking back salary via S/T, it could very well be what determines how active this offseason is. With the knowledge the only sign and trade deal Sterling has ever allowed was for ending contracts, Glen Rice might be a very useful chip in trying to acquire a max-type of player, like Brand (or yikes, Allan Houston or Glen Robinson), especially if combined with a nice talent on a rookie like Griffin. We could even throw in a pair of preseason games in LA with Yao. Sterling would like that
NIKEstrad: i honestly think you're going to see tim duncan playing more and more of the high post. for one, it will prolong his career. for two, he's damn good at it. make no mistake, tim duncan is a center. but neither he, nor the organization, want him playing there. i mean, what is duncan's go to move?: faceup, 15 foot, 45 degree angle jumper off the glass. that's his signature shot, and it in no way would be affected by brand's presence in the low post. brand would be the low post player in this pairing. the few times where brand would be out of the game, you'd see tim in the low post with malik rose in the high post. i disagree. i think that san antonio could offer brand the near max first, then "slink back to o'neal" with the max...all the while knowing that it was a possibility. as for o'neal ego, yea, i guess he could feel less than important, but then again, if his ego is THAT important he's going to the san antonio. greg popovich does not suffer big egos. more than that, o'neal would never be THE MAN on san antonio...that much is known presently. who knows how his ego would handle that. all told, it makes it even more likely that elton brand would be a better choice for the spurs. he'd have no problem not being the man to be on a winning team. this is a dukie we're talking about...the man is used to winning and being a cog in the team (one more selling point for brand over o'neal). no doubt. but i don't see any potential large packages of young and exciting players with cheap contracts who could 1) add up to brand's salary, and 2) could all be packaged in a deal to send to the clippers. no doubt. my guess is that everyone on that list, except for odom, will be gone from the clips sooner rather than later. and the only reason odom will stay is because he has literally smoked himself into a corner. his off the court problems will drive his value down to the point that he might as well stay with the clips...where his behavior is tolerated, if not completely ignored...
First off, this has nothing to do with Brand demanding the max regardless of any other variable in the question. Brand is a max player...that's all there is to it, imo. Whether you think Sterling might not match an under max offer is beside the point, you first must tell me why Brand would sign one. As for Sterling not willing to trade for star attraction...that's what he did for Brand, right? Also, since lottery teams often have cap space, he can SnT Brand for a rookie scale contract, this year or following. He knows that. So he might match a below market contract for Brand just to keep him for a trade, later. As for Sterling not being interested in trading for max contracts...when is the last time Sterling had a max contract player to trade? Brand is such a player, and he can get someone in return. Hell, I'd SnT Brand for Francis, and I think Sterling would to. Sterling does have a weird history of free agents, but his history of making poor picks is worse (trading McDyess, picking Kandi)....notice that none of his high picks got ROY, like Brand. Do you honestly think he wouldn't have resigned Vince Carter vs Olowakandi? Kobe vs Lorenzen Wright?I don't think you can use Sterlings history to make claims about what he'll do with a legitimate stud worth the max.
Hmm...Darko for Pierce? No way. They already have Antoine Walker...the guards they would have would really really suck! I'd rather give up Antoine Walker than Paul Pierce... Spurs sign Brand...I think the Clippers owner would upset everyone and surprise everyone and sign Brand for more than the Spurs offer...and then Brand would be stuck for even longer!!!! Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand are both good power forwards....same level... Both would fit with the Spurs. Both would fit with the Rockets. It will be interesting to see what happens... And hopefully the Rockets will be going after them.
codell, quit saying that my point is money over rings. That is a non-sequitur. I'm saying money and situation is always considered; otherwise, all young stars would look to jump ship for better teams...and that's just not the case. imo, Jermaine will apply his Bird rights, and you said he wouldn't. He won't look at SA as the only situation...he'd look at several teams being an instant win scenario...and he won't view the Rockets as a no win scenario....so it is not either/or, there are more variables than title vs money. Why is that a stretch? My point was not to prove that the Rockets are a better situation, my point was to say that Jermaine will likely use his Bird Rights....and so, that means it is not just Indiana or San Antonio.
Yes...but he's been here for almost 4 years! And they are all quality posts! And he has not bashed me yet...or maybe I'm on his ignore list. Not ridiculous! Why do you even look at that?!? The post count should be removed.
ok. brand is a max player. so what's to stop the spurs from anteing up and offering the max? nothing. i said the near max because they may want to pinch pennies; but the truth is that they could offer to him with no problems whatsoever... and, yes, sterling did trade for brand - a star attraction on a rookie contract. the fact of the matter is that he has never ponied up and paid a max contract. you could argue that he's never had one, but imo, that's because he's never wanted one. i know it sounds ridiculous because we'd all love to believe that everyone in sports wants to win...but donald sterling is the exception to the rule. the don wants the duckets. and if he can get them while keeping his bottom line low, the don's happier than a duck in water.
If the Spurs offer Brand the MAX, then can the Clippers give him the MAX and keep him? I think the Clippers are making a lot of money...net profit...
What does picking him have to do with not trading him? Of course he's your pick. He *is* the consensus #2 pick. That is not inconsistent with listening to trades. Why does trading Darko require a free agent? Also, even if it is a free agent, what does signing him quickly have to do with anything? A lot of draft picks don't get signed before July 1st. Detroit is allowed to talk to free agents then. Dumars and Brown could call Brand and O'Neal on July 1st, and can actually agree to terms. They just can't make the SnT until July 15th.
HELL NO!!!! wHILE WERE BRINGING UP BAD TRADES HOW ABOUT J. BENDER FOR YAO. HE RUNS THE BREAK BETTER THAN ANY OF THE ROCKET BIG MEN AND HE WOULD DO GREAT WITH FRANCHISE AND MOBLEY IN THE OPEN COURT.
HP, I never felt that was your point. I agree that money and situation (winning) are always considered. As well as location, position played, etc. I am saying, we don't know what his priorities are and for anyone to place stock in one over the other, is stretching (this is why I have used ????? and rhetorical statements in this thread). I certainly wasn't implying that you favored one situation over another, but rather, wanted to make it clear that I don't think O'Neal himself will let that 7th make or break a deal if all his other criteria are met. I never said he wouldn't. I said that IMO, retaining his Bird rights and that 7th year may or may not be favored over winning, location, etc. if a S&T can't be done. Again, I said a team "like SA" (i.e. one that is a playoff contender who can sign him to a max deal without a S&T). I don't think he will view the Rockets as a no-win situation either, but we are not his best option depending on what his priorities are. This is my whole point. Not to say that SA is favored, but that we definitely are not favored over anyone else. We hold no inherent advantages in money, winning, location, etc. over any other team who might be a good fit for him. Other teams can offer him the same money we can. Other teams can offer him the PF position. Other teams can offer the Pacers S&T eye candy. Other teams can offer him the chance to be "the man" more so than he would be here. Other teams can offer him a chance to win quicker. Then I misunderstood your point. I felt you were insinuating that the Rockets would be one of the primo teams for him to look at because of the S&T possibilities that we can offer to Indiana. I completely agree that as far as S&T possibilites go, the race is almost wide open for his services. I never felt that SA or Inidana were his only options. Again, this is highly dependent on what his priorities will be. Without knowing that, its hard to speculate which way he will lean or where he will look to go. I just don't want BBS Rocket fan trying to make the Rockets look like the superior option over any other team. Sorry for the confusion.
Outside of the bulls, since the 80's who has not had a combination of dominant big and small and won. The Lakers with worthy, kareem, magic did, the bad boy pistons with Isiah and bill laimbeer, mahorn, aguirre, vinnie johnson, the celtics had one of the best frontlines in NBA history with parish, mchale, bird and solid backcourt play(heck bird was a damn good point forward). The Lakers have Shaq and Kobe. The three teams that broke the mold were Jordan's bulls, the 94 rockets(no dominant guard) and these Spurs. The Spurs would be the most apt comparison to a team of o'neal/yao, but most twin towers combinations have failed to deliver up to expectations in league history. Just look at Sampson/dream, even though they made one magical, and unblievable finals run, they fell short of expectations. And these spurs championships have been against vastly inferior opponents in the eastern conference. And the rockets did use the general principle of inside-out to win their first championship anyways. The nets are a good team, but they would be a low seed at best out West and they could have won that series, or very easily extended it 7 games. Then the Spurs beat the undermanned Knicks in 99, so it wasn't like they beat some major power. I believe the game is played inside-out, and I prefer to have my stars be big and small. The reason the Spurs worked was Robinson took a backseat to Duncan in the offense in order to win a ring. I don't see Jermaine O'Neal doing that. He is still trying to make himself a superstar recognizable worldwide. I agree that Yao can definitely play the high post, I just don't think O'Neal is the kind of guy to give up his scoring or role as primary scorer in an offense yet. Brand is a better fit and can be had cheaper if you ask me. Plus jermaine really is undersized bulk wise against most western pf's, except for ours, GS, memphis, denver and garnett in minny. Bottom line: I believe in the two star, one big one small theory with good role players, and just don't feel as comfortable with my stars both as post players. Plus if we resigned posey and tinsley, we would have average to poor shooters at two positions that we would need good shooters from to thrive in that system. Maybe boki can be one in the longrun, though. Finally, this is all a really moot point unless Jermaine really wants us over orlando, indiana or SA, which is possible but highly unlikely.
okay back to reality. I dont think the rockets will trade Francis simply because of byc. Alot of the upcoming moves all depend on what JVG wants. It doesnt matter what we think,or Les,or Cd, JVG is the coach and will want players to match HIS coaching system. He will look at all the game tape,and then decide.I do think however in all seriousness that either Kurt Thomas(Ny wants Eddie),or Kenny Thomas(eddie's from Phily), or Brian Grant(JVG brother is Heat's Pres) will be here next year. From JVG comments,he sounds like he really likes Cat and Steve and Posey. SO the only changes will be MINOR ones,and bench roles,and maybe a pf like Pj Brown or something. However,If I was in charge,I would want Brand at all costs(anyone except Ming) and JOneal is second on my list. Oh,btw,a little off topic,but I DONT think JVG is right if he keeps Cat and Steve together. They dont mesh. I read that JVG had a 3 hour phone talk with CAt I think,and Steve hasnt even greeted him yet. If I had to put money on it,I would say Steve is traded before Cat from JVG.But I atleast have to wait a year since JVG will probably want to see what he can do with our present team for a year.
DVauthrin, Lack of great teams with a stud PF and Center is more about how hard it is for one team to have both. You make it sound like history makes it a matter of choice. Saying the volume of teams with guards matched with big man proves a "mold" doesn't mean anything when you compare that to the rare situations that a stud PF/C happens. I could show many guard/big man combos that failed (starting with Payton/Kemp, Johnson/Barkley and Stockton/Malone). Now you show me how many times a PF/C combo failed. It's a matter of volume that you are using to define a mold, when I'm saying that it is rare to get a PF/C and it's a no brainer when you have the opportunity. Defense wins championships now. That is "the mold." A PF/C combination makes for great defense over any other combo, especially with zones. It is just very rare that one team ever has a chance to get a great PF with a great C. And when it does happen, show me when it fails. Robinson/Duncan, Lucas/Walton and Sampson/Hakeem prove that great PF/C combos with average guards can work. Further, the Knicks/Rockets Final shows that dominant frontcourt defenses can win.
HeyP, if this trade actually happen I'll probably be as excited as anybody. However, I think you are banking too much on Jermaine O'Neal's greatness. O'Neal is no Duncan, Lucas and might not even be a Sampson. We already have a pretty BIG unknown in Yao (I think he'll be great, but might take a while). Now throw O'Neal into the mix and what have you got? Not that I think SF is better as a player than him, however, don't be surprised that he doesn't do any better than SF. I do agree that big men dominate though.
HP, I know defense wins titles, I believed in that principle since I first starting watching sports as a kid. Hold on there now, you used Sampson/Dream as an example while dismissing 3 guard/big combos who all did as much in the league as they did, which is make it to the NBA finals. I am not old enough to comment on walton/lucas or even sampson/hakeem as I was 3 years old at the time, but I'm not saying a great pf/c combo can't work, I'm saying I don't like O' neal as the compliment to Yao. I don't think he would fare nearly as well in the West, and if Francis just tries hustling on defense, I would much rather keep Steve for now, and work on adding a dirty work pf to pair with Yao.
