What's your point? I mean JKidd gets like 5 assists off alley-oops a game(exaggerated, but he still gets a lot more assists from alley-oops then francis). Besides, the fact that steve throws so many oops should show you that he's not a bad passer.
The important thing to remember is that we will be replacing the backcourt mate. It doesn't matter where Steve is listed. The uestion is, would an Eric Snow benefit this team more than a Cuttino Mobley? This is how we should look at the situation.
I read it on different websites a few times, particularly around the time he was in the draft back in 99. Also, Fran Blinebury made a joke when he did an article on TJ Ford. He basically said that TJ is 5' 10" to 5' 11", but if he was on the Rockets, he would be listed at 6' 3".
Steve averaged 3.7 turnovers per game. Jason Kidd averaged 3.7 turnovers per game. They tied for the worst in the league in this catagory. Were Jason Kidds turnovers less appalling because he had more assists? The Rockets played a mostly one on one ( I didn't say ISO) offensive scheme that doesn't lend itself to assists. j
No Kidd's turnovers were less appalling because he spends most of his time trying to pass and create for others while Steve spends most of his time trying to create for himself, yet he ends up with as many turnovers as a true point guard like Kidd. A more important stat than assist-turnover ratio in this comparison would be turnover per pass attempt.
silent j You don't think that the PG you have at hand dictates the type of offense you're going to run? If we had truly made Yao the focal point of our offense, then perhaps the lack of assists could be excused. But Yao wasn't the focal point of the offense last year. And he didn't exist for the Rockets the previous 3 years of Francis' tenure. So why didn't we try something else? THere are only two real answers: 1. Rudy was incomprehensibly stupid. 2. Francis isn't much of a floor general. I think it's probably a bit of both. As Deuce Rings pointed out, Kidd picks up turnovers trying to run an offense. Francis picks them up making bad decisions. But forget the assist turnover #'s if you wish. Watch Steve Francis attempt to run a fast break. It's horribly ugly. Watch Jason Kidd run a fast break. Or hell, watch Sam Cassell run a fast break. That tells you all you need to know about Francis' court vision. The fast break is the best possible scenario for a PG. His players usually outnumber the opposition, and he has multiple options. Francis almost never successfully runs a 3 on 2. Don't even ask him to run a 2 on 3 like Kidd can do. Regardless, sometime, compare Francis assists/turnovers to Kobe Bryant. Kobe Bryant doesn't even pretend to be a 1. Frightening.
I absolutely think we ran the offense we did because of the type of player Francis is, and because of the player that Mobley is. Rudy said a number of times that when Mobely takes his man one on one, more often than not, good things happen. (He had some actual percentages of course, but who gives a rat's ass, it's boring basketball). Francis is not going to get a lot of assists with that type of thinking. The reason you can't trust Francis to run a fast break is because he thinks he can score on anyone anytime, it's the same reason he never passes on the pick and roll. The reason he has so many turnovers is because he gets into his move and all of a sudden he can't beat the guy he thought he could and has to get rid of the ball. I guess that's poor decision making, but it's his stones getting in the way of making a good decision, not lack of court vision. I am not saying he is your Stockton/Johnson/Robertson traditional pointguard. Just the opposite, so you can't judge him by the same criteria (assist to turnovers), and don't make him into one. All I'm saying is I'm tired of stat geeks saying he has a bad A/T ratio so he's a bad point guard. He's a bad point guard because he's a great one on one player. If that means he's a 2, so be it, but don't think that's going to put the ball into the hands of a pass first point guard, because Francis still has to have the ball in his hands to score. Kobe's assist to turnover was 1.67, Francis was 1.68. Kobe may not be a one, but they are called on to do they same thing, score first, pass second, and Lord knows even when he's shooting 7 for 25, Kobe still thinks he's the best option so he's not going to pass. j
Errr, I don't think they keep that one.... 3.7 turnovers per game is 3.7 turnovers per game, no matter how you arrive at those turnovers. You have blown anywhere from 7.4 points to 14.8 possible points whether you were running a fast break or dribbling out the 24 second clock. It has absolutely nothing to do with how many assists you have. j
That would be true, except for the fact that a pass that isn't handled by the receiver is charged as a turnover to the passer. That means every time Kidd throws a bullet to Aaron Williams and it bounces off his chest and out of bounds, that is a turnover for Kidd. I would much prefer seeing those kind of turnovers than Steve's r****ded bounce the ball off his leg trying to go between the legs for the 300th time without going anywhere turnovers.
Let's see... Almost every championship team since the 76ers have had a scorer as their primary distributer. Magic was a pass-first player and probably the best passer ever, but also a scorer. He averaged more rebounds than assists in his earlier years, and is remembered for his huge 42 point performance to close out his first championship. Dennis Johnson was a converted SG, yet helped the C's win big. Isiah Thomas was a 20PPG kind of player. Jordan & Pippen were not considered "pure" PG's, yet from '90-'93, they ran the point far more often than Paxson or Armstrong did (John & BJ weren't good distributers at all). As I can remember, Pippen wasn't any better at leading the break than Stevie is. Pip was also TO prone and had a lot less range than Stevie does...yet another hybrid point. Kenny Smith & Sam I Am? Two more hybrid guys. Ron Harper? ...not a "true" PG by any stretch. Okay, so Avery Johnson bucks the trend, but '99 was an unusual season. The Lakers used Kobe as their primary distributer through most of their championship era. Parker? He definitely has a scorer's mentality, & the Spurs were at their best when TP was scoring this past season. 23 of the last 25 championships were won with high scoring guards running the point. With experience and some luck Steve could be next. Even last season Steve was at his best when he had the greenlight to score from the PG position. I think JVG will find a way to help him to improve on some of his more repetitive mistakes, but overall the Rockets have one of the best playmakers in the L. Maybe some of you are focusing too much on SF's mistakes, while not noticing how many other PG's in the L have some of the same types of problems. Most teams & their fans WISH their PG could shoot & pass as well as Francis. A. Williams & J. Crawford are a couple of the PG's that are frequently mentioned as candidates to help Stevie move to the 2, yet neither are any better than Francis as distributers go. Snow might be a better passer, but his weak overall offense puts a lot of extra pressure on his teammates to score, pressure that is not relieved by slightly better passing. Unless a superstar-type scoring forward will be joining the Rockets soon, a scoring PG is probably necessary to an eventual championship. I think some of you are either underrating Stevie or overrating the rest of the L's PG's.
Kelvin Cato has given Stevie and Cuttino the same type of turnovers for the last four years because he can't catch a pass unless it's a floater above the rim for an alley-oop. j
We have had several discussions regarding Francis' ability to play the point or move him to shooting guard. Fact is, Francis isn't a very good point guard. If Francis isn't doing his job then what is the purpose of keeping him at the point guard position?
Here's my take. Most people on this board says that because Francis rebounds the ball so well, the fast break is stymied because of this which is totally falso. Kidd,Stockton, Magic and even guys like a younger rod strickland would rebound the ball and start the fast break. In fact, when the guard does get the rebound, it clears the lanes for the wing players and big guys to run the floor. Francis makes or commits to's because of his poor basketball instincts. Just like can't teach hands or vision, you can't teach instincts for a guard. Its like a pro qb who knows how to slide to avoid a sack in the pocket instead of running the ball or getting sacked. Francis lack of court savvy while handling or not handling the ball doesn't have anything to do with him succeeding at the 2 gaurd spot either. Whats the use of Francis basically turning into basically a jump shooter because his lack of size playing the 2? If Mobley shot the ball as much as people want francis to shoot it playing the 2, how doesn't think Mobley couldn't score 25 or 26 a game? I'm not the biggest Mobley fan on this board, but the supposed gap in talent people try to make between Cat and Francis isn't that great. Last yr when Mobley was shooting 18 times a game, he avg 21 ppg just like francis did this season , so what's the point? The way to help this offense become more effecient is for Ming to be physically fit and capable enough to handle most of the offensive load. He's thebest decision maker on the team and probably the best passer. Once this is established, then the team will be ok, but expecting Francis to be a quality decision maker is a pipe dream.
I agree with most of your post, but a QB can't slide to avoid a sack in the pocket. A QB slides to avoid taking a hit. You throw it away to avoid taking a sack (close to a receiver if you are in the pocket, to avoid intentional grounding).
why not do another stat, scoring conversions/TO, to get a real feel for how turnover prone someone is? we all know steve doesn't get all 3.7 TO's from trying to get 6.2 asts, some come from trying to score 21.6 a game. same for kidd, he certainly gets turnovers from trying to score (he only shoots 0.6 shots less than francis). a scoring conversion is simply an assist, fg made, or 2 ft's made. it measures how many good things you create for every bad thing (turnover) you do. and it's not position specific b/c turnovers should be relative the role you fill, be it scoring, creating, both, or neither. for a few players the numbers are: francis 4.38 kidd 4.70 cuttion 4.67 (barely loses to kidd) yao 4.02 gilbert arenas 4.21 parker 5.22 (hey maybe he doesn't suck) alvin williams 7.25 gary payton 7.9 this still shows francis to be turnover prone but it also shows kidd isn't that far ahead of him in terms of turning it over. yao's got some work to do and gary payton is friggin amazing at not turning it over. my comp is too slow to do it for any other people. basically, i think ast/to is a poor stat to use to say someone is turnover prone if passing isn't their only duty, as is the case for many a pg in today's game.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this worthless hack is the same guy that started the all-star game the last two years right? I know starting is a popularity contest, but do you honestly think he would not have been on those squads? All of you guys harp on his flaws like he makes no positive impact on games. I sit here imagining some of you real world conversations : "hey bra, isn't that Pamela Lee?" "Dude, she is staring you down go talk to her." "no way I hit that, her feet are way too large." I swear to God. you people would b**** about free money in a bowl of chocolate ice cream.
its just a minor gap. Cat scores 21, francis scores 21... but those 6+ assits and 6+ rebounds dont matter the fact is Mobley ONLY concentrates on scoring. Francis also consintrates on scoring..... and creating for teamates, rebounding, and being a leader... God knows what would happen if francis only chose to score... Thats why people are curious of what Francis could be as a two
