You know what you're so funny. Hey, why blame the 5th year guy when we could blame the 2nd year guy, one who doesn't get the ball at that. Amare did not get the Suns into the playoffs, Marbury, Matrix and Penny did. Hey if we're taking players who get junk baskets when left wide open as great players then I'm more than good enough to make the NBA. But whatever. Let's just trade Yao now. Happy?
You just lost all credibilitey there (not that you had any to start). FACT: McGrady had **** for teams. FACT: Before this season TMac led his **** team to the playoffs every year. FACT: Most people who watch basketball knows Steve does not worth licking TMac's boot. On a second thought maybe I'm a bit delirious here. I mean hey, Steve never gave a fan a glimmer of hope and now he just plain regresses. That's a nice way to drive a fan nuts.
That's one more than Yao has had. I know, I know. He's just a 2nd year player, blah, blah, blah. Maybe sometime in his 17th season, you'll admit he is soft.
Let's assume the Magic moved west. I'll buy into the WC better than EC argument and take 5 mins from them. That'll put Orlando at 37 - 45, with a crap team. Steve, with Yao and Cat, only took the Rockets to 8 games better. The ONLY guards who took a crap team to the playoffs in the last 2 decades (I'm sure longer than that but I'd have to check) were MJ and Vince Carter, both of whom where also in the EC. TMac would be the next on that list. Kobe took the Shaqless Lakers to what, 4 - 10? 5 - 10? So he was on track to a 23 - 59 record. Simply put, take TMac and put him on the Rockets, we'd be talking how to get past the 2nd round at worst. Take Steve and put him on the Magic, he wouldn't be in sniffing distance of the playoffs. Now I always assumed that people just accept as a FACT that TMac and Kobe are better players but obviously I was wrong
You really crack me up you know. Hey I'll admit he's soft, that never was the issue here. But given the choices, I'll take soft over stupid and selfish any day.
TMac only averages 4 assists per game for his career. Kobe only 4 assists and 4 rebounds. They are NOT 20-6-6. Therefor they cannot possibly be better than Francis. 20-6-6 Jackass. PS - never mind the fact that both Kobe and McGrady's assist totals have gone up every full season in their careers while Steve's have gone down.
I think that Rivaldo2181, and Rocket River have made many great posts, yet most here don't listen. When Steve has had good years we have been winning, and lord knows that he has never had much talent other than Mobes around him. I honesly feel that if you make him the focal point when Ming is surrounded and Ming when Stevie is off, that it can work, and work very well. You know many times, I see Ming doing nothing and yet we still run the offense through him, he is absolutely surrounded, and they try to stick to the gameplan; Granted, I respect that and they have to have a good game plan, but we need to mix things up more, and I feel that Francis is being taken out of his game by the new style of play. As far as shooting percentage, please, look at Kidd's percentage and turnovers, yet some of you act like he is God. He succeeds, because he is allowed to play his game, and even this year, they are not winning in the East, yet you are not knocking him? Same for Marbury? And we all know that Kidd is capable of succeeding, but he can't do it on his own right? Is he not a max player? Some of you need to layoff of Steve, we have one of the best point guards in the league, granted, I'll give you that he's of the shoot-first variety, but we need all of the offense that we can get, and as you guys can see, his turnovers have only gone up with this new style, and every other stat down, yet Ming has really not produced any better. Props to Rocket River and the others who see this.
Good to see someone who actually reads the posts and understands that the Rockets need Francis and Yao in order to be a contender in the years to come. Most fans have a hatred for Francis and no matter what he does they will hate and try to dimish what he does. Francis can score 40 and drop 11 assts and win the game and still they will find faults and hate on him. Haters are going to be haters no matter what!!! Some people are just bitter that way and have nothing better to do. Francis & Yao (assuming the ROckets don't make a boneheaded mistake and trade one of them) will lead this team to a title before their carreers are said and done with. Peace.
Hey let me summarize all I said here. I'll start by looking at both players (Yao and Steve). Steve is blessed with ALL the physical gifts to make him successful. I'm mean, he's quick, has hops and pretty strong for his height. You have to be satisfied with that (not everybody can have Vince Carter like athleticism). With these gifts he can beat his man to the hoop most of the time, can run, can rebound and of course can dunk. Those are the things he can do well. On the flip side, he's an average shooter, he can't play D (which is a shame cuz with his athletic abilities, he CAN be very good if he tried), he doesn't have good handles and is very TO prone. But what hurt his team the most is his inability to make a pass, his lack of court vision being an important part of it. Our offence as a team ALWAYS break down into an ISO offence. Whether it's ISO for Steve, ISO for Cat, ISO for Yao for him to dish out when doubled. I think an important part of that is because Steve can't make a pass. Let me make it clear that I don't think he's selfish as some suggest here, I just think he's too dumb to get a clue. Yao is pretty blessed as well. He's 7'6 (that's a HUGE one right there) and he's very quick for his size. He's a very good shooter when he's not fading on those shots, he's a great passer, he's skilled got many low post moves when he chooses to use them, he greatly improves our D and he draws double/triple teams to open up shots for others. The downside of course being mostly mental. He is a p***y and not as aggressive as he should be. He has a tendency to be WAY too unselfish (I know Cat is wide open, but when you're 1 on 1 against Foster, gotta take it to him). His rebounding can be greatly improved as is his stamina. Now here's the kicker. A pretty good player plays 15 years in the NBA, give and take a bit (not everybody can play as long as Karla) and the last 3 of those 15 years generally tend to be pretty bad. Hey, just ask Hakeem. He went from the best big man of his era to just a starter to bench to scrub to being waived by his team in 3 years. So we're looking at an effective career of around 12 years for, as stated, A PRETTY GOOD PLAYER. Most of those players start to "get it" some time around their 3rd/4th season. They won't be in their prime by then but you start to see them dominate. Steve is 4 1/2 (or 1/3, but one third into his 12-15 years) into his tenure and has yet to get a clue. In fact, if anything, he's regressing. So let's even assume that he does start to dominate, it's not gonna start this year, it won't be next year, it'll be the one after that at the earliest (his 7th season). Anybody can tell you that just by being good won't bring the ring (unless you have a bunch of other good players) and being a guard, the odds of Steve bringing a ring is low. Yao is 1 1/2 into his 12 - 15 years. He just turned 23 in september so time is on his side. Most importantly however, is that HE'S ALREADY SHOWN MORE IMPROVEMENTS IN THIS LEAGUE THAN STEVE EVER DID. Now, my idea for trading a player is very simple. You give a supposed good players 4 - 5 years (one third of their career). If they don't: 1. Do something by then OR 2. Improve I trade him. Steve is at that point right now. A third of his career has passed. When he gets older he'll lose his athleticism and he won't be nearly as effective any more. Now, most other older players (eg. MJ) compensate for this by becoming smarter. Yet we're stuck with the stickler that Steve is too dumb to get smart. Not to mention, the things he needs to improve (court vision, passing, defence, ballhandling) are harder to improve than Yao's needs (strength training, stamina training, rebounding). That and the fact that he's older makes him the candidate to trade on this incompatible team. I was labelled a Yao only fan before so I was very clear about my standards. If Yao doesn't start to whip ass (or keep on improving) by his 4th season, I would be looking at trades as well. However, it still doesn't change the fact that there are Steve only fans out there. Juggie only posts when there's a Yao bashing thread. farhan never posts in the game thread, never in a trade thread not involving Steve, never posts in a starter thread, yet pops up for 20 posts in a Yao/Steve thread just to bash the former and preach the latter. Francis4prez all but disappeared from the face of the earth now that the Rockets are sucking, large part due to the first 7 letters of his alias. I called out all the Francis only fans, including this, 8 times in 6 different threads and said basically "I gave my limit for trading Yao, what's your limite for trading Steve." All I got was 1 measly response (not from either Juggie, farhan nor F4P). That response said until then end of this season so he has time to prove himself. I was amenable to the idea, not because I think he can improve, but because his BYC would make trades difficult. What really surprised me however, was how fast a Steve only fan can pull a disappearing job. So I call all of you out again: At what point do we admit Steve is not working and trade him? If I don't get a response again we'll all know that you would keep Steve at the expense of the team and we'll all know exactly what type of fans you are.
Wait a sec, did you just say Steve is better than Kobe AND Tmac? So if either players are offered for Steve you wouldn't make the trade huh. Kobe and TMac's numbers have gone up while Steve's has gone down? So Kobe and TMac are better players AND getting better while Steve is getting worse? Yeah I'm the jackass indeed. Jokes on you buddy.
MFW, Just like any other player on the team, I would trade Steve if an offer comes along that makes the team better. Yes, I would trade Steve for Kobe just like I would trade Yao for Zach Randolph.
Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Zydrunas Illgauskas, Elton Brand...none of them have made the playoffs. All of them get paid more than Steve.
I remember a few years ago some network flashed this stat on the screen... "He is one of the few players ever in NBA history to average 20/6/6." Something about only 4 players ever...etc, etc...Oscar and Jordan were in that list along with Francis. But come on!!!!! Do you know why he's in that list? Rebounds. Ok, so what? He can jump. Big deal! In fact. He's just edged into that 20/6/6 list. The numbers were spun (some statistician) to make something out of nothing. What about Jordan's numbers (ppg/ast/rbs)? How about 29/5.3/6.2! Hmmm, what about Oscar? Oh, just 25.7/9.5/7.5! How's that 20/6/6 looking now? Is that worth MAX? And we're not even taking about intangibles like court vision or decision making. We're just talking stats. OH, and by the way. Jordan shot .49%FG and Oscar shot .48%FG. Lets not talk about turnover rates... Here's what we got? The Rockets paid MORE for LESS.
Yes, for a 7'6" 300lb center. Yao does play like a little girl. Mix Yao's fundamentals and skill with Francis athletic ability and ego. And we'd have the ultimate player.
I believe Shareef Abdur-Raheem has MAX money and he can't win 35 games to save his life. But in all honesty, I agree that Steve is a non factor in most of the games. We dont even have a guy getting 20 points every night. MAX players should get 20 ppg. He has not been able to determine if he needs to pass or shoot once he penetrates to the paint.
Because saying he's a 39/4.8/12 guy would be basing his whole career on two mere months opposed to CAREER stats...which would be stupid...he has a known HISTORY of producing capable numbers and it would be ignorant and stupid to say he's the player he's shown this year opposed to the player he's been for the past 4 years.
I'll admit Yao needs to b alot tougher, but I think alo of it comes from stamina issue. One you lose you energy, you start to play lazy by not moving your feet and reaching. Whats Francis problems? Whats hi excuse that his to's has went up every yr sinchis rookie yr? Many will say he din't play pg in college, but neither did Cassell,McInnis,Marbury and a slew of other guys had to learn to play pg in the pro's so whats the problems? I hope everything will work out, but I think its much easier to find someone to run the ofense effective and lead the team as opposed to finding a quality big man. Isaih was the last all star pg to win a title who led his team in scoring. Since then, Armstrong,Paxson,Smith,Cassell,Parker,Johnson, an guys like that whom just ld the team, didn't mak mistakes and ontrolled the team ha won it. Not to mention, they had a all star big guy which even in his 2nd yr, Ming is. He has improvemnt to do, but at last it looks like he's headed that way instead of going backwards.
Nope. I suggest trading Yao for a big man with some presence in the paint. It would give us so many options to build around Steve.
